Ace side count strategies

[Fade]

I have two questions: 1) What's the easiest and most effective counting strategy to use that keeps an ace side count? 2) Where can I find information on how to learn it?

[Ray]

Hi Opt II or Omega II both are level two systems with a high PE rating.
These would apply to single or DD games due to limited number of
Ace's. Don't know where to direct you to more information, but here is
their numbers:

High Opt 2,3,4,5,6,7_ _ 10,J.Q,K,A
.............1,1,2,2,1,1_ _ 2,2,2,2 ,0

Omega II 2,3,4,5,6,7,_ 9,10,J,Q,K,A
...............1,1,2,2,2,1,_ 1, 2,2,2,2,0

Try Google

[Fade]

I posted on Standford Wong's website and I was provided with the following two links: http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/counting/gordon.htm and http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/sdcnt.htm

That Gordon side count sounds impossible to me. Anyway, it's too much for me to keep track of.

I haven't learned a counting strategy yet and I'm trying to decide on the right one. I don't want to confuse myself by trying to learn more than one. The problem is how to be precise and also use a system that's not too mentally taxing. I really don't know what system would be best for me, but it seems to me that the easiest to use system that keeps track of aces would be the way to go. By the way, where I play in Korea only 6-deck is available.

[Ray]

Fade-Side count of aces is used mostly for betting and I don't think that
it is a good idea for any of the shoe games. Card removal in six and
eight deck does not matter as much in those games compared to single
or double deck. Example: Suppose you are getting 4-5 hands in a single
deck game and you have not seen any aces fall. Further, suppose that
you just finished the third hand. You would be justified in increasing your
bet based on an Ace rich deck. In the shoes games, say six deck, when
a few aces have been played(2-3) you still have 21-22 aces left, but you
also have a large volume of other cards that washes away your potential
to receive a BJ on the next hand or so. There are just too many cards for
a side count of aces to be viable.

Suggest H/L or any of the balanced counts, level 1,2 or 3. There is very
little difference in return. H/L is the easiest to learn.

[Fade]

Ray, I'm not talking about raising my bet after the first few hands. The counter I knew would play two hands at a time. He'd just bet mostly the table minimum the whole shoe and then the last few hands he would raise his bet to $200 to $300. At this particular casino in Korea you don't hav to camaflauge because they don't care if you count. But he lost $60,000 in 2 months doing that. So he decided he needed to count aces. He got screwed a lot of times even though the count was in his favor because there was an ace in the hole. So what he'd do is just not raise his bet those last few hands if there were still a lot of aces left.

[stainless steel rat]

that is not exactly "counting cards".

Using something simple, like Hi-Lo (my choice) or an unbalanced count like Snyder's red-7 or KO or whatever will work on shoes just fine. And it doesn't matter then whether there are lots of aces left or not. Your advantage is calculated because of those aces in fact. If you want to do an ace side count, in an ace-reckoned count like Hi-Lo (or any count that includes aces) you can do so. And you bet using the hi-lo normal TC value, then adjust the TC with your ace side-count to improve your playing decisions. For example, 11 vs a dealer A. With extra aces rather than 10's, you might choose to not double. Etc. There are lots of articles on using ace side-counts.

I've played a long time and do not. I've done it in SD games as it is pretty easy to do there. But for shoes with 24/32 aces, I'm not sure it is worth the mental effort when you factor in the errors it is going to cause when you screw the RC and/or ASC up when they are "close" together...

[Ray]

SSR- I agree, it is not worth the effort betting or playing in shoe games.
Think about 8 deck with two cut off, leaving six......If ace side counts
gave a substantial advandage, you would here and read a great deal
more than what is available. Blackjacks reduce the HA by 2.25% and it
is natural to want to give the ace more credit than it justifies.

[stainless steel rat]

many step into this trap of switching to a better/stronger counting system (level 2 or beyond). Because of the improved playing efficiency. Many more consider switching, but their common sense prevents them from stepping into a system that is harder to use, especially when they play only shoes where PE is relatively unimportant compared to betting correlation.

I'll quote the oft-mentioned sage advice from an author I don't recall,

"A simple counting system, played with a high degree of accuracy, will beat any of the high-level counting systems when they are played with mistakes."

I thought about changing more than once over the past few years. Each time I either talked myself out of it, or other counters I know talked me out of it, all for the same reason. And knowing a couple of professionals, that happen to be quite happy using hi-lo, makes the decision a little easier to stand by. :)

The counting system is far less important than the accuracy with which it is employed... But everybody always wants the most promising sounding "gimmick" to improve their winning rate. The best gimmick is just lots of practice. :)

[Fade]

that is not exactly "counting cards". He was counting cards. He just raised his bet the last few hands of the shoe if the count was in his favor.
What’s betting correlation? What’s playing efficiency? How is that different from ease of use.

http://www.qfit.com/blackjack-strategy.htm I went to this link and took a test to see what counting strategy would work best for me. It looks like KO would be the way to go. Not having to differentiate between TC and RC would save me from mistakes. SSR, I know you use two different kinds of software to practice on. Would I be able to use KO with that software or is that software specific to Hi-Lo?

[FunkyChicken]

Betting correlation has to do with how well your bet will correlate to your advantage. Thus, a higher betting correlation will mean that when your system tells you to bet more, there is a high chance that is directly related to the cards left in the deck favoring you.

Playing efficiency is how well the decisions that your counting system tells you to make correlate to the correct decision. This only comes into effect when you deviate from basic strategy based on the count. Thus, with a small number of decks, your count will vary more wildly and you will deviate more often. Thus, with one deck games, for example, you might rather have a high playing efficiency. With multi-deck games, you would probably prefer a high betting correlation.

[stainless steel rat]

one point for a high PE counting system.

I know of single deck games I can't play. Because I use hi-lo, and really need a 1-4 spread to eke much money out of them. And at some of these places, the pit is so paranoid that 1-4 will get you tossed out quickly.

With a good PE system, and a good SD game, you can actually flat-bet and still win. And if you carefully "parlay" your bets to let you get a very cautious 1-2 or maybe 1-4 spread down, but only by parlaying wins, you can do even better. And since you can win with a smaller spread, you might be able to play games that I can't play.

Fortunately there are (were) enough decent SD/DD games (DD at least) on the MS coast, that I didn't have to worry with the SD sweatshops, I could just move on. In Reno, there are good SD games to be had. But quite a few will bounce you with 1-4 spreads. If you could play with an advantage without spreading, you can play, and they won't be able to figure you are counting by your bet movement. Of course, your playing decisions will be a bit of a give-away...

If all I had were such games, I would probably be forced into a L2 count. Or else not play at all. Fortunately, you can find good SD/DD games, and if you don't mind, you can certainly find good shoe games. Lower win rate on the shoes, more negative counts to deal with, etc... but you can still play (I can still play) with hi-lo...

So if that circumstance (good SD games but lots of heat from the pit) then maybe a L2 count is for you. Otherwise, work on the accuracy, and forget the complexity...

[Fade]

SSR, I know you use two different kinds of software to practice on. Would I be able to use KO with that software or is that software specific to Hi-Lo?

[stainless steel rat]

I use CVBJ. It includes most every counting system known to man, along with the full indices, just the I18 indices, etc. For KO, there is an exception, since the authors would not give Norm permission to include their indices. Norm (he can correct me here if I remember this wrong) used his sim program CVData and produced custom indices that are very close to the KO indices. He calls this system "OK" on CVBJ. You can use that. Or, since you have the KO book, it is trivial to set up a custom counting system, enter the playing indices you want, and you are set. CVBJ is very easy to customize if you choose to use non-standard indices. For example, some players prefer what are called "risk-averse" indices that are used to reduce variance and win rate, although they reduce variance more. For example, you double or split less often which reduces the amount of money at risk, to reduce variance...

You can't go wrong with the thing. It will turn you into a counting monster if you practice enough. Everyone talks about the "TC conversion" effort in Hi-Lo. I don't know what they are talking about myself, since I don't even think about it after practicing with Norm's software for a year +. I keep a normal running count, glance at the discard tray to do the remaining cards estimate, and play or bet. I never stop to think "OK, running count is +3, we have 3/4 deck left in this SD game, so the TC is 3 divided by 3/4, which is 3 X 4/3, which is 4. I'lve learned to somehow mentally convert 3 + 3/4 deck = 4 without thinking about it. It can't get much better than that. This is one of those cases where practice truly can make perfect...

[FunkyChicken]

Where do you get CVBJ?

[stainless steel rat]

www.qfit.com

I'd suggest buying CVBJ and CVCX as a bundle, which will save you a little money.

CVCX will let you discover the optimal bet ramp, for specific rules, let you analyze and compare games with different penetration/rule sets, etc...

Both are "must-have" IMHO...