Beginner Counter - Where Do I Start?

[PJ]

What is the best way for a good basic strategy player to get started? Should I practice and learn HI-Low? KISS? Ace/10 Front Count? Is 2D better than shoes? I'm at the point where I want to take this game to the next level.

[Grifter]

PJ - Here's a quick (cause I'm headed for Laughlin)"from the gut" answer. The latest reports I've read say that most new counters are going with the K.O. Method (Knock-Out Blackjack by Olaf Vancura & Ken Fuchs......It is an unbalanced method so you do not have to convert to a true count, and that is probably the reason for its popularity.

It is very easy to learn and understand, the performance ratings are great, and I don't think you could go wrong with it. I have used it without any trouble, and I'm from the 'old school' that learned and played for years with a balanced count.......Fred Renzey's Kiss III is very similar to K.O., but I have never tried it.

- Yes, learn and then practice, practice, practice.

- Yes, 2D is better than shoes.....far better in my opinion, but I'm prejudiced.

Good luck and congrats on your decision....I'm outta here.

Grif'

[Dylanfreak]

Because hi-lo involves estimating how many cards have been played and converting to the true count, and KO is the true count without any estimating, I used KO when I began counting cards. And I still use it.

Dylanfreak

[PJ]

Dylanfreak, Does KO work good with both 2D and multi-deck? How long have you used it?

[Sage]

I also a new counter, been working on it for about 4 months. I like the KISS system, you don't need negative numbers, the values go from about 9 to over 30. Have just graduated from KISS I to KISS II. The transition was hard, I still miss the red 3 once in a while. Suggest you start with KISS II right off the beginning. (works both SD, DD and shoe games)
I can back count, (that's easy) but I still get mixed up between the count and the play of the hand. After I play the hand I can't always recall the count I left off at. However, I have developed a list of names to help me remember the count as I move between the two counts.
Number name
3 stool (legs)
4 car (wheels)
5 hand (fingers)
6 6 gun
7 7 Up (uncola)
Etc. The names have helped a lot. Takes lots of practice.
Good luck :wink:

[PJ]

Sage, being fairly new to counting yourself, have you realized more success as compared to just playing basic strategy? I know even the best skilled counters have losing sessions that impact their bankroll, but how does one know that their success was directly related to their improved skills? Are you seeing the expected cards appearing more frequently(based on the presumed remaining deck composition) which make more winning hands than before? I guess I'm just wondering if I will actually notice a real difference in the flow of the cards, or, will the change be most obvious in the amount of CHIPS on my side of the table. And, compared to the dealer, are you as a counter still winning about the same percentage NUMBER of HANDS as with basic strategy play, but just getting more $$$ in the betting circle when the count calls for it? Maybe I'm just asking what is the REAL advantage to be expected when I become more of a skilled player.

[Sage]

I am just at the stage where I am back counting. I walk around and count tables and try to find a table with
+ 1 (or 17 in KISS count). Then I play. I don't trust the count while playing (I lose it), so I am not changing the bet $$ based upon the count. But at times I do change basic strategy based upon the count. If I know it is very high, I will stand on 16 vs 10 and double 9 vs 2 & 11 vs A etc.
Yes, back counting to find a good table is working. Last week I watch a table where everyone was losing, but the count was climbing. Two people quit the table (lots of hands lost) when the count got quite high. I sat down as they quit and I tripled my money in about 30 minutes. I play Walter's 2,3,4,5 progression.
But I have also sat down at a high count and lost a lot to the dealers 20 & 21. But counting before I sit down gives me a feeling of control and confidence. It has added to the enjoyment of the game. Over the last few months I am up in $$, but not enough to say the counting is doing it. But I am definitely enjoying the fun of it more. :D

[PJ]

How do you keep a low profile and not alert the pit you are backcounting?
Are they suspicious when they see people standing behind a game?

[Sage]

Have never had a problem with back counting. I look away when the first cards of the round are dealt. Then look back when the second cards of the round are dealt. (Count by two, easy to cancel +1 & -1 cards) I look away when a player is slow to play their hand & when the dealer is paying off and when the shuffle comes. Never thought about it, but I probable don't look at the table more than 40% of the time. I also glance a lot. If I can't be looking at a TV, I look at the table next to where I am standing, like I am trying to decide where to play. Sometimes a friendly dealer will look at me and ask me to play. I always say I'm just leaning the game and want to watch how other people play. That seems to end the discussion. Even had a waitress explain how the Casino offers BJ classes early on Saturday mornings. When I sit down I ask questions and get lots of help (most of which I don’t take). When I make a strange play @ a high count, I say I have a hunch. The whole process is part of the fun. Went to Las Vegas a few weeks ago, and did lots of back counting, never had a problem. Won a few $$ in the process. :wink:

[colin563]

Hi There :wink:

Here's some light reading for you on the high and lows of a card counter, excellant reading :D

LAS VEGAS TRIP REPORT PART 1 by LV Pro
http://www.bjinsider.com/newsletter_50_lvpro.shtml

LAS VEGAS TRIP REPORT Part 2-February-March 2004 by LV Pro
http://www.bjinsider.com/newsletter_51_lvpro.shtml

Be lucky and take care

Cheers

Colin