MONEY

[Ray]

If your a 5-10-20 dollar player, do you ever:

(ASSUME ANY KIND OF COUNTING INCLUDING A/10)

1. Play a 25 dollar table when you first enter the Casino?

2. After playing a while at a 10 dollar table do you ever
move up to "green" or maybe to a 25 dollar table?

3. Make sure you don't win "too much" at one table.



I will do all three whenever conditions allow and I am
normally a 10-20 player. There are two reasons for this
money strategy. First, you win in clumps and your win clumps
need to over-come the times you lose. Second, you can
reduce your exposure to heat and get more money on the
table in the 25 dollar game and still stay within your bankroll.

I'm not suggesting a "Bull in the China shop" approach. Best
you have some very good guidelines before taking this approach.

I'm interested in how others play and the reasons for same.


P.S. I gave up on the possibility of learning the "MENTOR" count
because you can not save/retain any index numbers and the
relative value of numbers would have to be erased and re-learned.
It would be a different story if we had single or double decks.

Ray

[Grifter]

Ray:

1. No - My session bankroll is already sized to a specific unit.

2. Yes/No - I will occasionally 'Wong' higher tables.

3. ?? - I try not to let them know how much I have won (if I have won).

Grifter

[Ray]

Grifter, I was thinking about the progressive player "MIDNIGHT" told
us about. 2:1 says he won too much at one table. Also, a couple of
players that did nothing more than win, got all kinds of heat based on
the amount of their bets; nothing else; no counting.

Most of my play is dictated by the environment I play in: Weekends,
can't get a place at most tables(5-10), can at 25.
Requirements: (start of playing session)
- Backcount 25 only(2-2.5 decks)
- Require high count(2-3)
- 3 level bet spread max
- Walk if your even or down at the end of the shoe, otherwise continue.
(set a 3 loss limit on the next shoe)
- Bankroll is always the same(40 X 25) for any session

Objective: Give yourself a chance to play at higher stakes, but
with min. risk.

The A/10 player can use this same approach but should flat bet one
or two green chips if he is a 5 or 10 dollar player and he should
board count every round thereafter as a saftey measure. If the
shoe goes negative, walk.

If I start a session at a 10 dollar table , it is always my objective
to at some point go to the green chip level. I play the green chips
out of my right hand, as many as I have and like you, cut -off some
when I can. I'll never up my unit level unless my position is strong
in the win column and expect to play several hrs. more.

Naturally, I don't always meet my objectives and I don't always
win but , I do try to extend a win session if at all possible because
we all know that a losing session could be anytime.


Ray

[Grifter]

Ray - I have met the guy Midnite was talking about and I know what progression he uses, so (1) I won't take your money (2) I don't want to say too much about it except this..... I don't think it was the $$$$. He plays a wild, wild progression that floats back and forth between low bets and high bets and practically screams "I'm a counter!" even though the guy is playing a progression.

About playing styles - I sure don't have any argument with your ideas and occasional play at a higher level than your usual unit. Makes sense to me..... but I play under entirely different conditions, and don't have to face what you face, so I play a little differently; probably more structured because I have control over my playing conditions.

(1) I don't make one day casino "runs", I go for two/three/four days (therefore, I'm not forced into playing at any specific time) (2) I stay in the hotel where I plan to do most of my playing (no travel time). (3) I usually play during the week (less crowded). (4) I start play at 3:00-4:00 a.m. in the morning (always open tables, many times heads-up). (5) Bottom Line.....With no time constraints, I do not have to play a single hand until I feel conditions are 'right'. I am never 'fighting the clock'.

Grifter

[Ray]

Grifter, You must be a LV Guy....Lucky you(and with money as well)

Is the "Stardust" still there? Last time I was there was years ago and
the place was in need of repairs then.

Ray

[jm2552]

Ray:


3. ?? - I try not to let them know how much I have won (if I have won).


Now, I don't mean this to sound stupid, but did you mean this tongue-in-cheek? I mean, this is one of the parts I've been worried about. Actually, how would you "hide" your wins, in the overall amount? I'm assuming just keeping chips in hand, pocket, etc. And what about when you're cashing out (if luck/skill has it). If you were a regular, two, three times a week there, wouldn't your wins be noticed, big time?

I'm asking this in the hopes that my sort of hybrid progression works well enough to have wins. But I'm afraid of being noticed if it's too successful (that's optimism for ya!)

Oh also, anyone know, are the Indian casinos any different, as far as buying or cashing out? It's still done the same way, right? Someone told me that cashing out was different there...

John

[midnite]

John- I have played in several Indian casinos, in several states.
I have found them all to be just like Vegas, when it comes to cashing out. You can "hide" some chips and cash them in latter, on a different shift or have your wife cash them in. In a small place this is almost useless. If you are a regular player at one of the smaller places, they will be able to track your play very well.

[Grifter]

John/Midnite - I do not have that much experience with Indian casinos (or riverboats) but enough to know they are not "just like Vegas". Two examples pop in my mind immediately: (1) Just two weeks ago at Midnite's own regular casino, the cashier had to call to get approval to cash in just three black chips for me. (2) At a riverboat about five years ago, I went to cash in $1,100 and was told by the cashier she needed I.D. for anything over $1,000.

You can "hide" some chips and cash them in latter, on a different shift or have your wife cash them in. In a small place this is almost useless. If you are a regular player at one of the smaller places, they will be able to track your play very well.

John/Midnite - There is absolutely no correlation between "cashing in your chips" and a casino "tracking your play"......John, your question was about "cashing in". Don't worry about it, especially at $5/$10 betting unit level. You are talking about cashing in amounts of say $100 - $300 and the cashier could care less. She doesn't know (or care) what your buy-in was or whether that say $100 signifies a win or a loss.

John - The pit(s) can/do track your play rather easily, especially if you show them a players card and let them "put a name to you". Midnite has a valid point......If you are a "regular" at a small casino they will in short order have a track on you......And in my opinion, that would be all the more reason to occasionally 'drag' a high chip or two if you are winning. Why let them know how much you are winning?? This is not "useless" in my opinion.....just smart.

Regards.....Grifter

[Ray]

Guys, I play riverboats with three floors. If I change tables, I cash
out prior to a new table. I want to look like I just came in off the street
at every table. Change foors, change cashiers, don't win too much at
one table or location. If your cashier has got to get approval, then your
showing too much money.

Ray

[Grifter]

Yessir, you are 100% right, Ray. That was my first (and very few since then) experience on a riverboat and I learned your advice the hard way. It wasn't a big deal. I just cashed in for 600, waited away from the cage for a personnel change....then went back and cashed in the rest.

[jm2552]

You guys are just great. Thanks Grifter and Midnite. Your advice/knowledge is very helpful. You've offset some of my worries. My strategy (in the sim) has been to always walk at a $500 ahead point. Now I don't feel too worried about cashing out. Assuming of course that things work as well in the real world. (That's a laugh, a casino as "real world") :lol:

PS: I've only been here since August, but there is a real community feel here. I look forward to reading the discussions everyday. Thanks.

[Ray]

Grifter, A little off the subject but, let me run something by you that
I've been thinking about:

It's hard to remain in a obscured position when backcounting a 25
dollar table. You want find any people standing around and just
watching the play. I was thinking of trying an A/9 count because
you can see the large cards at a great distance; say playing a
quarter slot,etc. If you get a table, you have two options: Convert
to your count or just board count and play out the shoe based on
your best estimates as to where you are. What do you think?

Ray

[Grifter]

Ray – Here are my thoughts. Maybe someone else will have something to add to them….or disagree, or whatever.

I see no reason why your idea wouldn’t work, and from what you said yesterday you don’t mind starting the green table anyway. And since your riverboat has three decks (levels), I would see no reason you couldn’t try this three times.

I think you can get closer to the table to do your backcount. I have posted this before, but here is what I sometimes do. I pry my wife and/or sister-in-law away from their VP machines and take her/them with me to a likely table. Move as close to the table as you can without disturbing the players, directly behind an open chair, and simply act interested in the game. Heck, play the wide-eyed ‘first-timer’ routine if you want. Make/fake small talk to your partner as if you were explaining the game to her, and do your count. Note: Make sure you clue your partner in on what is going on so she doesn’t ask you to explain Einstein’s Theory of Relativity while you are trying to do a backcount. :wink: When you feel good about the table…..jump in.

The Count?..... By getting closer to the table you can know use a full count for a backcount if you want, but let’s assume you stayed with the A/9.
1. You really can’t convert to “your count”. You have no starting point because you don’t know how accurate your A/9 count is…..You are just relatively sure it is positive.
2. An accurate board count should work o.k. but you are changing methods. I think I would do this.
3. Just continue with your A/9 count through at least three decks. You are already into it and about the only thing you can expect anyway is knowing if the remaining cards are negative or positive, but not how much.

Hope this helps……Grifter

[Desert Dog]

Move as close to the table as you can without disturbing the players, directly behind an open chair, and simply act interested in the game.... Make/fake small talk to your partner as if you were explaining the game to her, and do your count... When you feel good about the table…..jump in.



Grifter, where do you go to get that dual-processor upgrade installed in your brain? I can't even drink a soda while I'm counting.

[Ray]

Thanks Grifter, Have done your routine before with my daughter as
Dr. Watson but, most of the time I'm alone by choice.

If you could trust the A/9 to be close, conversion to any level one is
simple and instant. The numbers 24, 48 and 72 equal 1,2,3
deck neutrals. For example: Anything less than 48( say 40 ) gives you
a running count that is the exact same as any single level balanced
count sys. 48 minus 40 = 8 running. For H/L thats 8/4=+2 instantly.

If you want even more accuracy, all of these numbers are also neutral
12,24,36,48,60,72, and anything less at any given time; half,full deck, 2,1/2 ,3, ect is plus and any thing greater is negative. If you could trust the A/9 accuracy, this is a better count system than
all the "KISS" variations, can be learned in days,not months, and has no
+/- components that seem to scare people away. Learning the level one
index numbers is most of the effort. By the way, 6,18,30,42 are examples
of 1/4 deck levels. Looks like "eggs" half doz, dozen, etc and very easy to
remember.

Just how much impact would the so called neutral "8" have?

Does anyone know?

Ray

[Grifter]

Brother Dawg - Son, ya' already got that dual processor installed. Ain't ya' ever heard of the right and left sides of the brain?? 8)

Seriously, we are talking about an A/9 (or A/10) frontcount. As far as you've come with learning a full count, I guarantee you could already handle this with ease.....and drink a soda (and maybe scratch your butt) at the same time. :wink:

[Desert Dog]

Never any problem scratching my butt while counting. That's one of those autonomous reflexes. But talking while counting, even an easy A/9 front count, now that's a higher intellect activity.

By the way, the way you worded your reply -- you'll have fun with this website: http://www.barbneal.com/foghorn.asp

Dawg

[midnite]

..If you are a "regular" at a small casino they will in short order, have a track on you......And in my opinion, that would be all the more reason to occasionally 'drag' a high chip or
two if you are winning. Why let them know how much you are winning?? This is not "useless" in my opinion.....just smart.

RE: Hiding chips is a good idea, but useless at the casino I play at. It may be the only casino in the world that calls in, when you cash in green chips.

John/Midnite - I do not have that much experience with Indian casinos (or riverboats) but enough to know they are not "just like Vegas". Two examples pop in my mind immediately: (1) Just two weeks ago at Midnite's own regular casino, the cashier had to call to get approval to cash in just three black chips for me. (2) At a riverboat about five years ago, I went to cash in $1,100 and was told by the cashier she needed I.D. for anything over$1,000.

RE: O.K. they are not "just like Vegas". But they don't pay you in wompom and beads or shells. You get real dollars for chips. It may take a tad longer and it may not.
(1) They would have made the same two calls if it was three green chips. (it didn't used to be that way, but it is now)

(2) Unusual, but many of their rules are.

John/Midnite - There is absolutely no correlation between "cashing in your chips" and a casino "tracking your play"

RE: True, at most places. But when I cash out ($375) and then decide to play again and the pit boss looks at his slip of paper and says, "You have already cashed out $375, right?" I see a correlation.

Point is, a "regular" at a smaller casino, can not get away with as much. The larger and busier the casino the better the chip hiding/hand off works and the less they will be able to track your play.

[Desert Dog]

The three Indian casinos I usually play at must be bigger in the scheme of things than I thought. Even at the smallest, where I play the most, nobody ever bats an eye at the cage if I cash in a few black chips. Usually it's just "congratulations" with the head tilted toward the cashiers' tip jar. And on the rare occasion I wander back to the tables for a fresh buy-in, nobody seems to care. Maybe they just figure I'm no real threat.

[Grifter]

Ray - You asked,"Just how much impact would the so called neutral "8" have?"......Good question and I wish I knew the answer, but I will be the first to admit the math is over my head. Renzey would know if he reads this......He is not only an engineer and a mathematician, he would have done a similar exercise before writing about his "A/10 Frontcount".

We all know the "value" of a removed eight is "zero", so the question becomes "by not counting the low cards, how much 'drift' will occur if there is a disproportiate amount of eights vs. key low cards removed from the deck?".......If we knew this I agree with you, the rest would be easy.

Grifter

[Ray]

Guys, Not all riverboats are the same. The two I play(close) most
often you need to watch everthing. The other, about 3 hrs away is
completely different. "BUT", the cut is about 1,7/8 and all 25 dollar
tables ...."no mid-shoe entry" and they mean every word of it.

They think they have a lock, so you can bet whatever you like with
no heat at all. "Playing black" is not in their vocab.

Ray