Question about ASM's?
  • Hi folks!

    Today I played at a table with an ASM (automatic shuffle machine) for the first time since I have been counting. It was a 6 deck game with all good rules. There were hardly any shoes in which the count was favorable. This seemed very odd to me as all last week I had played 6 deck games without ASM's and had seen as many great counts as not so great counts. Atleast I got a fluctuation. Sitting at the table today with the ASM felt like I didn't even have a chance at all. Highly annoying!!!

    So my question is:

    Was today at the table with the ASM just a coincidence as to why I got my a$$ rocked or was it just "one of those days"? I can't imagine how machine shuffling vs. a dealer shuffling would make a HUGE difference unless there is really something shady about those ASM's?

    If anything today I learned a valuable lesson if I was wrong at even sitting at that stupid table. I noticed the only games without ASM's were the higher minimum tables. So therefore I am assuming that ASM's are something to stay away from? So is it a big mistake to play at tables with ASM's? or does it even make a difference?
  • Oh, and just to make sure there is no misunderstanding in this post: I am talking about ASM's not CSM's. Thanx for your help.
  • with counting , u earn faster with CSM :lol:
  • beyond14 said:
    with counting , u earn faster with CSM :lol:

    Yeah, earn NOTHING fast with CSM's hahahahaha.

    Thanx for the reply, but I am talking about ASM's not CSM's. Stay away from CSM's. I wouldn't even play a game with a CSM if it was the only bj game offered. You may as well play just pull slots if you are going to go that route hahahaha.
  • I_Dream.....If you were getting the same penetration at the ASM table as the hand shuffled table, there should be no difference.....I'd wager you just had "one of those days" and the static count was just a coincidence.


    ps to are mistaken. a count is useless at a CSM table.
  • Thanx Grifter. Yes same penatration of 1.5. at both the ASM and hand shuffled games.

    1.5 pen is about as low as you can get in Atlantic City.
  • an auto shuffler should ramp up your EV a bit, since the long "shuffle breaks" disappear due to one pack being shuffled while the other is being dealt. If you play BS only, then this is yet another game to avoid, since the BS player wants the slowest game he can find, and hand-shuffling certainly slows the rounds per hour down.
  • Thanx Stainless.

    I was counting. I only revert to "BS only" if I happen to loose count.

    I just found it amazingly rediculous in my 2.5 hour session of busting what seemed like to be the majority of my hands, getting 2's 3's and 4's when I doubled on an A or a 10, and pushing on atleast 5 or more of my blackjacks. Rarely was there ever a DD opportunity, and if I had one I drew crap cards and lost. This was by far my biggest dissapointment since taking on counting this past summer.

    I guess you all have been thru the worst. I guess I was just shocked because this is my first bad experience as a counter. I know they say if you stick with BS and counting in the long run you will win. When is the long run? Playing to just to break even and regaining your losses gets old after a while.
  • stainless steel rat said:
    .... If you play BS only, then this is yet another game to avoid, since the BS player wants the slowest game he can find, and hand-shuffling certainly slows the rounds per hour down.

    SSR - You are computer/technically correct, but to a real player at a real table in a real casino your statement about avoiding the game is a "bit of a stretch". In real play the difference in almost meaningless. i.e. To a five dollar bettor the difference is about 25 cents for every 500 dollars he bets; certainly not enough reason to not play a table if the other table conditions are satisfactory/good (if you are worried about that quarter, toke the CW 25 cents less and you come out even :wink: )

  • Jaynie- Sounds like you just had a bad day. You can be sure that
    most of us have had like experiences. There will come a time when you
    will have the Zenith of all bad days and you will remember same above
    all others. But, the good times will counter those, which you may or may not remember. There is no magic with ASM' comes down to pen,rules
    and your game. Get'um next time.....
  • I played at a $5.00 minimum ($500 maximum) 4 Deck ASM table at Pechanga Casino Monday evening,
    and had a great time...
    The Dealer was consistently BUSTing almost every 4 HANDS (=25% of the time)...
    I definitely prefer a 2 Deck table whenever possible,
    but the only 2 Deck table was $100.00 minimum/high limit only.
  • Grifter:

    Of course I almost always speak in "theoretical terms". :) Here, with an ASM, the game does move a bit faster. I've not really bothered to time it, and it also depends on how many decks (a DD game, a 6D game, etc). But the game downtime is noticable when playing heads-up, as I can occasionally get into a "duel" with a dealer and I play just as fast as he can deal the cards and make the payoffs. In a DD game with 75% pen, dealing about 78 cards or 14-15 rounds (heads up) per shuffle, I can play the 14 rounds faster than the dealer can then reshuffle by hand.

    That was what I was basing my comparison on. A full table changes this a bit as my personal rounds per hour drops significantly. But at heads-up, my experience with ASM games has been good, so long as the ASM works. I have played once at Pearl River Resort in Mississippi where the thing slowed the game horribly, as it kept producing a blinking red light, requiring intervention from the pit, which included removing the cards, counting them, etc...
  • SSR - The only part of your post I corrected was your telling BS players to avoid ASM games. As I explained above, the difference is meaningless under real conditions.


    p.s. I don't know what you mean above with your reference to DD games in this discussion. I have never seen an ASM double deck game (but maybe they are out there).
  • I have played ASM double deck on Louisiana river boats and Indian casinos. As you know, it goes at a fast pace.
  • PJ - Interesting, thanks for the info. I wonder how much they "gain" by using them for double deck? It only takes a good dealer about thirty seconds to shuffle DD......Or is it because of possibly lower dealer skills in the smaller casinos?

  • I have not noticed any difference in dealer skills in Louisiana. In Texas we have a casino ship working out of Corpus Christi/Port Aransas where the dealers are some of the best I have ever seen, including Las Vegas.

    Regarding the double deck with ASM, I also wonder why have the machines, since there are only two double deck games in the casino. Maybe the machines can be modified to handle either double or six deck.

    After playing so much with ASM's now, it's really awkward and slow to watch a dealer sometimes have to shuffle if a machine gets jammed.
  • ASM's produce nothing for our consideration and their discussion has
    equal value. (JMHAO)...Just My Half A.....etc
  • ASM DD.


    I played one of these in Pearl River sometime back in the Spring of this year. It has been far enough back it is probably safe to "tell the tale" again. This was a simple DD game, with two packs of cards, one red, one blue (normally) but for this occasion, we had two packs of the same color. The first sign of a "problem" was when I was dealt two deuce of clubs, split 'em, and got a third deuce of clubs. Didn't dawn on me right at the time, but before the round ended I popped up "how in hell can that happen (3 deuce of clubs in a DD game)?" Lots of head scratching, questions about "why are all the cards the same color rather than two decks with blue backs, two with red? Etc. They counted the cards and one pack had 106 cards, one had 102. So off we go, separate the packs into four complete decks, verify there are 4 complete decks, typical bull**** procedures.

    restart game, red light blinks, card jammed. 4 new decks, spread 'em. make sure all cards are present. Put two in machine. Red light. About ready to go play russian roulette or something, finally they bring in a new machine and off we go.

    I've also played ASM 6 deck games. Beau in biloxi had one such table last time I played, other tables were hand-shuffled.

    And sorry for the confusion about BS. Yes, if you play BS, an ASM doesn't make a lot of difference, although I would personally avoid it as the game goes faster with the ASM, and a BS player wants to play as slow as possible...
  • One other note... I played one DD game at pearl river a year ago, where the dealer was about as slow as it was possible to be. Shuffling. dealing. paying off. All at 1/3 normal speed or worse. Dealer was very old (of course I am getting there but I'm not slow yet) and "shakey". And it certainly slowed the game down. with 2 other players, we were playing about 30 rounds an hour, which is about 30 rounds short of ridiculous. :)

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