Bringing 40x the Table Minimum
  • So I've heard that experts say that it is wise to bring 40x the table minimum you're playing at to avoid the huge swings in the negative direction... but is this really true? Because I'll tell you this:

    Before I knew about this, I would casually sit at the quarter tables and happily bet the green chip min. each time with only $100-$300 total and I've had equal success in both directions. If it was really not a good idea, than I should be down much more than I am right now... at one time I was up over $1000 too!

    Is there a particular LIMIT that this 40x level can be stretched to, or am I risking a lot by only bringing up to 12x the min. as opposed to the expert-recommended 40x, which would be $1000(!!) in this case? I just think 40x is too much, because, with the amount I normally bring to the casino, ~$200-300, that would mean that I'm not even supposed to play on the $10 min tables and I'm totally limited to the boring $5 tables all the time!!

    What do you folks think?
  • BuGhOu§eMASTER said:
    What do you folks think?


    I think you need to play $5 or $10 tables if you're only bringing $300. You could get wiped out at a $25 table really fast if you had a bad string of cards or hit a hot dealer. 12x is way too low.
  • Hmm, what a pity... because like I said I have won over a $1000 at those $25 tables with only up to a $300 bankroll. Let's see what others think.
  • BuGhOu§eMASTER said:
    Hmm, what a pity... because like I said I have won over a $1000 at those $25 tables with only up to a $300 bankroll. Let's see what others think.


    Yep, you can win, too. Doesn't take long at all to lose 12 hands if you're cold, though.

    You asked, I answered. You may not like the answer, but it is what it is.
  • I never at all said I wasn't satisfied with your answer. There is no need for you to be unnecessarily defensive.

    Come on........ you have any sort of IDEA the odds of losing 12 STRAIGHT?! Well you do now: .000149587%. :roll: Yeah... as if that's gonna be happening soon eh?!
  • I find that 20X is plenty. In fact, I buy in at 10X (with the understanding I might reach into the pocket for another 10X) and usually that's enough at least to get to where I feel like I've played long enough.
  • BuGhOu§eMASTER said:
    I never at all said I wasn't satisfied with your answer. There is no need for you to be unnecessarily defensive.

    Come on........ you have any sort of IDEA the odds of losing 12 STRAIGHT?! Well you do now: .000149587%. :roll: Yeah... as if that's gonna be happening soon eh?!


    I'm the one that told you how to calculate those odds, remember? LOL

    You may not lose 12 straight, but it doesn't take long to lose 12 hands net if you're cold or the dealer's hot (or both).

    You do what you like though, Bug. Have at it.
  • SH, I agree.... so why do you think they suggest to bring 40x then if it is a lot? Based on the votes so far, it's 4-1 so I'd like to hear both sides of the coin....
  • BuGhOu§eMASTER said:
    SH, I agree.... so why do you think they suggest to bring 40x then if it is a lot? Based on the votes so far, it's 4-1 so I'd like to hear both sides of the coin....



    Bug. I have no idea. But I've always thought that number was way high. For instance my progressive bet starts at $10, I got in the habit of buying in for $100 for no other scientific reason than it was a nice, round number. At 40X I'd be putting up $400. Well, I can only think of one time in my life that I've ever lost $400 at a sitting and it was one of the stupidest nights of my life.
  • Haha, yeah exactly. I wish Renzey or Thomason would post there very strong opinions on here.... that would definitely help!
  • Bug. It's down to 50-50 now. There must be something to it, but I can't figure it out.
  • Yeah... cuz if it's really accurate than 40x sure is a lot of money for a poor college student like me!!! haha... cuz like I said I usually bring around $2-3 so that would mean I cant even play in the $10 table with that 40x stuff... $5 tables?! Boooooooooooooooooooooooring!
  • The only reason I see for buying in for 40x is to get better comps. Some casinos rate based on buy in assuming the player is ready to lose that amount. I usually buy in for 10x which is $100 and use Dahl. I rarely have to go for another $100. :P :P
  • Wow, it's still locked up, this time at 5 votes.

    BJ Fan: Yeah, that's true. I notice they record how much we buy-in for... sometimes I just buy-in for all the money I brought, than when the dealer's not watching, just pocket most of it and take advantage of the comps :)

    I would like to hear the other side of the coin why "experts" suggest to bring 40x!

    Renzey, Thomason? Thoughts or opinions please?
  • This thread cannot be answered by me or the “experts” until someone defines the key factor…..TIME !

    BANKROLL is a direct function of time!!......(this is how I calculate what I need for a ‘trip’, it is in Walter’s book, it is in Fred’s book, and it is in virtually every other “experts” books)…..If you or someone else will define how long you intend to stay when you say “amount to take to the casino” I will give you my recommendation and hopefully the experts will too.

    But without time, forget it. The difference between the bankroll required for a four hour trip to a casino versus a two week stay is tremendous.

    Grifter
  • Grifter said:
    This thread cannot be answered by me or the “experts” until someone defines the key factor…..TIME !

    BANKROLL is a direct function of time!!......(this is how I calculate what I need for a ‘trip’, it is in Walter’s book, it is in Fred’s book, and it is in virtually every other “experts” books)…..If you or someone else will define how long you intend to stay when you say “amount to take to the casino” I will give you my recommendation and hopefully the experts will too.

    But without time, forget it. The difference between the bankroll required for a four hour trip to a casino versus a two week stay is tremendous.

    Grifter



    I assumed the time factor to be one session at the tables. Obviously, if you're talking about a week's worth of gambling, you can't expect to get by on 10X minimum bet for the entire week. What I was assuming was the amount you can expect to have a meaningful entertainment experience at the table for a few hours, maybe more if the cards are falling right. At the other exteme, if you walk up and pop down a $20 bill, obviously the game might beat you real quick and you didn't really give yourself a chance.. Nothing mathematical here, but my experience has told me that 20X is close to that number (although I start off with 10X actually in front of me). It's enough to let you ride out an early bad streak and still recover. If you lose 20X, it ain't your night. But I'm certainly no expert, just a recreational player.
  • I normally buy in for 20x the table minimum and play $10 tables. It's usually been enough for flat betting or conservative progressions. If I'm playing an aggressive progression, like "1-2-3 Let it Ride" I find a $5 limit table (the base bet in this progression is 2 units, ie $10) and buy in for 40x that minimum. For Walter's I'd probably go with 30x at a $10 table.
    If I was counting cards, I'd definitely go with at least 40x.
  • Grifter said:
    This thread cannot be answered by me or the “experts” until someone defines the key factor…..TIME !

    BANKROLL is a direct function of time!!......(this is how I calculate what I need for a ‘trip’, it is in Walter’s book, it is in Fred’s book, and it is in virtually every other “experts” books)…..If you or someone else will define how long you intend to stay when you say “amount to take to the casino” I will give you my recommendation and hopefully the experts will too.

    But without time, forget it. The difference between the bankroll required for a four hour trip to a casino versus a two week stay is tremendous.

    Grifter


    What would you say for a 2-3 day trip to LV/AC?
  • SH: Perfectly said. That is what I was meaning to, and yeah, if you're gonna be gambling for 2 weeks of course 10x wouldn't be enough... that'd just be BOLLOX.

    Well Grifter, I'm gonna be gambling with friends next weekend staying over at the hotel, and also this Sunday night (tomorrow actually) I probably will go there. How much do you recommend I bring for both tomorrow night (I'll get there at around 10:30-11 and leave the next day at around noon, obviously I wont be gambling the entire time...) as well as next weekend? Both times are for one night only, but next weekend we'll arrive a little earlier.
  • Bug – You are playing one of the most conservative progressions there is with Dahl, so you might get by with 30 units for your trips tonight and next week. However, I would recommend at least 40 units, and personally would use 60.

    The 12 units you have been using (and your 10, SH) are not enough. Think about it. All it takes is a set of 100 hands where you only win 42% of your hands, (and that is not at all unusual)……and you are “toast”.

    Desert Dog – You are better off with your 20 units, but it still only takes a set of 100 hands with a 38% winning percentage and you are “gone” too. In your case, since you are playing close to home I would at least carry the extra 20 units with me “just in case”.

    Buffarino – Two/Three days in LV?? Minimum of 100 units (recommend 120-150) if you are going to flat bet or use a conservative progression.

    Hope this helps - I know it is not what you wanted to hear.

    Grifter
  • I found the section on money management in Walter's classic "The Ultimate Blackjack Book". He recommends the following amounts for a basic wager of $10:
    One hour of play - $250
    Four hours of play - $750
    Eight hours of play - $1,500
    Three night trip - $4,500

    Just an FYI....
  • Yes, I was aware that Walter uses a "straight line" method of sizing his BR. It is also in his book "Twenty-First Century Blackjack".

    I do not hapen to agree with that, and quite frankly I don't know of any one else who uses that approach (Renzey for instance does not). Perhaps that is what works best with Walter's progression. I'm sure he will tell us.
  • Grifter said:
    Bug – You are playing one of the most conservative progressions there is with Dahl, so you might get by with 30 units for your trips tonight and next week. However, I would recommend at least 40 units, and personally would use 60.


    The 12 units you have been using (and your 10, SH) are not enough. Think about it. All it takes is a set of 100 hands where you only win 42% of your hands, (and that is not at all unusual)……and you are “toast”.

    Desert Dog – You are better off with your 20 units, but it still only takes a set of 100 hands with a 38% winning percentage and you are “gone” too. In your case, since you are playing close to home I would at least carry the extra 20 units with me “just in case”.

    Buffarino – Two/Three days in LV?? Minimum of 100 units (recommend 120-150) if you are going to flat bet or use a conservative progression.

    Hope this helps - I know it is not what you wanted to hear.

    Grifter


    Thanks, Grifter. I do keep the other 20x in my pocket, as cash, so I have to think about it if I need it, rather than buying all 40 x the table minimum at the outset and seeing it all as just colorful chips. (We're all talking about the "Unit" here being equal to the minimum bet, right?)

    I agree with 40x. What this discussion really amounts to is: What is a sufficiently high loss limit and what is its purpose? If you set a small buy-in/loss limit like 10 x the table minimum, then (a) you're not going to have much fun and (b) sure you won't lose too much but (c) you're depriving yourself of the opportunity to get back onto the winning side. You need the funds to ride out a bad start, and 40x is, from what I hear you and others say, the consensus as how far you should let it sink to give things a chance to turn around.
  • Grifter - For a session bankroll, how many units would you suggest for a 2-5 hour session in a 6 deck game. Also, I would be using the hi-lo counting system.
  • Well, I'm sticking with my 20X (but I'm not trying to convert anybody) It's worked pretty well for me all these years. My experience is that even if I do lose it, it takes several hours and I've had my chance to get hot. 10X, on the other hand, it's not that unusual to lose that in the first 15 minutes and I've many, many times recovered from it to have a good night.
    Of course, I can play whenever I want.
  • I need a couple of questions answered. First, you guys keep using the expression "20x" when referring to how much money you should have to play with. Am I correct that if a guy is a $10 bettor and he brings "20X" to play with, he has $200 in his pocket?

    Secondly, I see the expression "buy in". Is "buy in" the amount of chips you buy when you first sit down to play or is it an additional charge to get into the game in the first place? I ask this question because I have seen games (not in casinos), where a player got knocked out of a game and had to pay a certain amount to get back into the game. The additional amount that he paid to get back in went into the "pot".
  • Ted -
    1. Yes, "20x" or "20 units" would twenty bets for the $10 bettor = $200.
    2. Yes, "buy-in" is the amount of chips you buy when you start a session.
  • Somehow I got the impression that the guys at this site were minimum $25 players. I think it tells a different story if each player when talking about hands that he was in used the actual dollar amount that he bet, rather than "units" . I have played maybe 15 sessisons of BJ in Atlantic City in the last 5 years. I started being a $5 bettor but got a little bored. I play in $10 games now. Now, that I have bought Fred's book (it's being mailed and I'll get in on Saturday) and have my eyes opened to the idea of counting cards, I may gravitate to a "25" player.
  • Ted, I've never sat down and played green chips yet, although with a progression I've had plenty of hands with more than $25 dollars in the box. I'm a $10 player now too but only relatively recently as my confidence in knowing the game has gone up. I guess the point for me is I can relate better to the strength of a type of play if I here how many units are involved and what the results as far as the W/L ratio is in a % of units. I'd much rather know about the play of an individual if he consistantly wins 50% of his unit buy in over and over even if its 5 dollar units, than hear about a guy betting a thousand dollars just once.
  • Doc - Precisely!, and that's why I have made two posts urging people to talk in "Units", not "$$$$". "Unit" is the common denominator that lets us talk "apples to apples" irrespective of dollars won/lost/bet/whatever.
  • McFlaherty - If you are going a full five hours with a decent spread, I would say not less than 60 units, and would recommend 80.....G.
  • Thanks Grifter..... I have been going with quite a few less than the minimal 60 units (ranging from 20-40), but I will definetly bump it up for the next trip.

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