Talking to the pit after a lossing session?
  • Do you think it is a good idea to call to the pit boss attention a really big losing session. I think that it could cause the pit to rate you as a worse player than you really are and comp you more for your bad session. The pit is sometimes releaved when a player loses because they are responsible for the hold. If I have a session where I win break even or don't lose much than I will not make a big deal of it to the pit. But as a $25 average better losing $400 in one hour 16 times my average bet I think that is good session to point out to the pit.
  • Are you certain you really work in a casino?
    Have you ever met a PB that cared about a player dropping $400?
    Perhaps if you added a G or a K into the equation,but 400 semolians?
  • learningtocount said:
    Do you think it is a good idea to call to the pit boss attention a really big losing session. I think that it could cause the pit to rate you as a worse player than you really are and comp you more for your bad session. The pit is sometimes releaved when a player loses because they are responsible for the hold. If I have a session where I win break even or don't lose much than I will not make a big deal of it to the pit. But as a $25 average better losing $400 in one hour 16 times my average bet I think that is good session to point out to the pit.


    $25 average, suggests that you are playing with $15 unit and probably spreading $15 to $60 using Hi-Lo in single deck. Losing $400 an hour is not a big deal. You are within normal standard deviation, actually you have 1.5 standard deviation in this case. But this is not the issue here. The pit don’t know s***t about standard deviation. He practically doesn’t care what you lose. It make no difference on his hold.. I cannot see how anybody will notice if a player lose $400 while playing $25 average. You cannot get any sympathy or more comps by trying to get into conversation and point out the fact that you lost $400.
    Don’t get me wrong, I am on your side, I know that for you $400 is some how a big deal or as a matter of fact $400 is “four hundred dollars” and it can buy useful things in life but the casino monster doesn’t blink at that amount. You can easily make next hour $500 profit and it doesn’t count either. Normal standard deviation undistinguished from random luck or normal distribution of events. Now you have $100 profit for two hours of play or $50 per hour. You made 2% on your action. That is normal. Nothing spectacular. However, if you lose couple thousands in a day probably the pit will notice and give some more comps or whatever. But nothing special for $400.
  • $400 for one hour of play is more than 13 times the expected win of $30 the casino expected to win from me and it is a bigger loss than I'm used too. If you don't think that winning or losing $400 in a low roller casino doesn't matter than you are surely mistaken. $400 is more money than the average customer puts down for an hour of play sure there are high rollers out there that can put way more money than that down the casino coffers. I'm not trying to compete against a high roller but I'm trying to get comped more than a low roller. Plus for me losing at a blackjack game for an hour is an usual result and I want them not to look at me in session when I'm up a couple of hundred dollars. I bet $25 a hand on my first couple of hands to try and get rated as a bigger better. Than the count stayed high so I went up to $50 a hand. Than in negative counts I was droping down to $10 a hand if I lost and the count was still negative I would drop down again to $5.
  • learningtocount said:
    $400 for one hour of play is more than 13 times the expected win of $30 the casino expected to win from me and it is a bigger loss than I'm used too. If you don't think that winning or losing $400 in a low roller casino doesn't matter than you are surely mistaken. $400 is more money than the average customer puts down for an hour of play sure there are high rollers out there that can put way more money than that down the casino coffers. I'm not trying to compete against a high roller but I'm trying to get comped more than a low roller. Plus for me losing at a blackjack game for an hour is an usual result and I want them not to look at me in session when I'm up a couple of hundred dollars. I bet $25 a hand on my first couple of hands to try and get rated as a bigger better. Than the count stayed high so I went up to $50 a hand. Than in negative counts I was droping down to $10 a hand if I lost and the count was still negative I would drop down again to $5.



    They don't care. Others will walk away with that much in winnings or more. If you drop multiple thousands, you might get sympathy. But many lose 400 bucks on one hand so it isn't a big deal.
  • learningtocount said:
    $400 for one hour of play is more than 13 times the expected win of $30 the casino expected to win from me and it is a bigger loss than I'm used too. If you don't think that winning or losing $400 in a low roller casino doesn't matter than you are surely mistaken. $400 is more money than the average customer puts down for an hour of play sure there are high rollers out there that can put way more money than that down the casino coffers. I'm not trying to compete against a high roller but I'm trying to get comped more than a low roller. Plus for me losing at a blackjack game for an hour is an usual result and I want them not to look at me in session when I'm up a couple of hundred dollars. I bet $25 a hand on my first couple of hands to try and get rated as a bigger better. Than the count stayed high so I went up to $50 a hand. Than in negative counts I was droping down to $10 a hand if I lost and the count was still negative I would drop down again to $5.

    I understand your point. I’ve been there and I know how you feel.

    Well, the simulations verify and the real live play shows that starting with a bankroll of $25,000 and playing $25 green chip base unit with 10:1 spread like you do, the bankroll will fluctuate sometimes +/- 5K or even more in short order. We are talking here about a 1000 units bank. Sometimes you will see flux of +/- 200 betting units or more in couple hours.
    That’s why we need large banks in regard to number of units to absorb the negative flux on our way upward. I’m always a believer in at least 2000 or more units bank. If you lose 200 units you really don’t care much. And you should just disregard the flux and continue playing like a machine if you have a winning system. There is no way to avoid flux. Not a big deal, is just a normal way random events behave.
    I had and still have sometimes +/- 10K flux in couple hours when I play black chips but somehow I always get them back eventually if I continue playing with an edge. But you got to stay in business to climb out of holes and get the $$ that belongs to you. .., .. (lol)

    Go get them tiger, and when you got them in a corner hit hard until they bleed
  • The amount of people who drop $400 or more and lose at least $400 in one day at my casino is under 5% of the patrons. The biggest buy-in that I have taken at one time was only $1,000 in a almost a years time. There was one exception a player who lost $50,000 in one day. He was the only player who we allowed to play $2,000 a hand all other players where restricted $200 and $500 maximums. Which at my casino very few players play a maximum bet. In my casino that I work at I think that the pit boss care about $400. I think the pit boss would shit them selfs if the player who lost $50,000 actually won $50,000. The pit boss probably take a big loss with a grain of salt and get nervous at a big win by a player.
  • Suppose the next time you go,you win $400 in an hour.The pitboss walks over and says that since you just won 13 times what the casino expected,he's not going to give you any comps for that session.
  • learningtocount said:
    The amount of people who drop $400 or more and lose at least $400 in one day at my casino is under 5% of the patrons. The biggest buy-in that I have taken at one time was only $1,000 in a almost a years time. There was one exception a player who lost $50,000 in one day. He was the only player who we allowed to play $2,000 a hand all other players where restricted $200 and $500 maximums. Which at my casino very few players play a maximum bet. In my casino that I work at I think that the pit boss care about $400. I think the pit boss would shit them selfs if the player who lost $50,000 actually won $50,000. The pit boss probably take a big loss with a grain of salt and get nervous at a big win by a player.


    May I ask , this:
    Do you play blackjack for amusement as a pass time? – Or to supplement your income?
    And if I don’t sound to intrusive in your private life, What kind of casino work are you involved with? – In all honesty, it seems to me that probably you shouldn’t play $25 average bets unless you have a big bankroll dedicated to the game and looking to make money to supplement your income. I honestly cannot figure how a casino job could support a pass time hobby at $25 average bets. If you didn’t have a buy-in over $1,000 in a year time I can tell you that you not spreading enough to create flux. We need flux to win. We cannot win and have a smooth ride upward.
  • LTC is a dealer in Tahoe at the low roller place with Mindplay. I think he mainly plays the single deck games and from his post his max bet is $50 but he averages about $15. He might start a shuffle off at $25 and drop to table min if the count is negative, so his spread is not that big and I guess neither is his bankroll.
    This thread though is really about prespective. Where some might drop $400 on one hand and not flinch, to LTC it is a significant amount of money and he would at least like a smpathy comp from the casino. I can understand this but in the eyes of the casino, even a low roller place, it is not significant to them.

    Then there is how you ask the pit, and when you ask the pit.
    Understand that you can ask the same person, the same question in different ways, at different times and get completely different answers.
    Did you interrupt the pit when he was doing something important like asking the cocktail waitress out?
    Did you whine and cry about how unlucky you just were, while he really could not give a sh*t?
    Did you demand the comp by saying something like, "I just lost a bunch of money and think you guys should buy me dinner" in a way where it sounded like a demand?

    Or did you wait to he came by your table and quietly you told him that you had been there for X time, the cards could be better but I am getting a little hungry, think you could set me up with something?

    I know it is kind of hard to believe but in fact Pits are people also. They get out of the wrong side of the bed just as we do, and the approach when you want something within reason just may be the key to getting it.

    ihate17
  • 17,

    LTC honest question and his humility is refreshing. I sympathize with him

    The following is my analysis of the situation.
    The single-deck games at Tahoe are at -.40% edge with basic. And, theoretically speaking (assuming perfect Basic Strategy play, and a fixed number of rounds between shuffles), there is NO way to beat the game unless you do INSURANCE and some index plays like: 16 vs. 9/T, 15 vs. T, 12, vs. 2/3 and have 2:1 spread. Assuming you can see the original two hole cards of the player to your immediate right the INSURANCE will cut a big chunk in casino’s edge.

    Assuming all this, LTC, the good news is that (with error-free play) you have an advantage over the casino of +.20% (+/- .05%) and a standard deviation of 11% of your hourly action. Not bad, and certainly acceptable for recreational play (for professional play, I consider an advantage of +1.25% the bare minimum acceptable edge) when big bets are involved. Actually, the big action bets are triggered by 2.5% edge or more and even that has risk associated with.

    LTC, here's something to watch for. Because it takes more "little" cards than "big" cards to make a given total, at the end of a given number of rounds, plus (favorable) decks generally occur with fewer cards remaining that minus (unfavorable) decks. In 7-hole layouts, like some clubs in Tahoe and Reno, you will, therefore, find some dealers who will deal two rounds if the first round ends with a minus or near neutral count, and shuffle if the count is really plus. They are often not engaging in intentional selective shuffling--it just make believe they will run out of cards. Do NOT play against such dealers. Only play if you always get two rounds (at a full table), no matter what. But, I’m sure you know all this if you work as a dealer in that area.

    Obviously, I guess, if you slide into $400 negative flux you should get some comps like a buffet or something. But casinos don’t even become aware of.
  • One reason why I felt that it was important to talk to the pit after a big lossing session was to offset some previous wins that I had at the place. A couple of times before I had won a couple of hundred dollars and I don't want the pit to think I win everytime or almost everytime I come in there. I want them to know sometimes I lose and lose big. Besides since this is my local casino and I don't want to stay in the hotel all I'm really after are some food comps perfectly reasonable for my level of play. Both times when I was kicked out of the casino for card counting I was up less than $150 to put the $400 in to prospective. This place that I'm playing at has exceptional rules for Tahoe and the house advantage with perfect basic stragegy play is around .3%. A $400 loss is 88 times greater than a basic stragedys players expected loss of $4.50 for that hour. Thats why I felt I should call attention to it.
  • I work in the casinos before as well and it really doesn't matter to the PB's wether the player loses. It's a known and expected fact that people lose playing casnio games. It's the winning that they will monitor as this is where they rate their players. Players are rated according to their average bets and playing capital. And yes, unless the loses you have incurred are greater than what an average player loses in a particular table limit and in a particular span of time. As a PB or a PS, we monitor tables every the hour on normal circumstances and after every shoe, in heavy action or when laying with VIP's. Best to think of is how to camouflage your winnings rather than exploiting your loses. Lose big now but win small constantly will still get you noticed. If you play that small, it's best that you play during heavy days when casinos are packed so that their attention is more focused on the big bettors.
  • In my job I make about $20 an hour with tips so my bankroll of $400 is about 4 to 5 days worth of tips that are paid in cash. I'm a pretty good blackjack player and that is probably the main reason why I can afford to make $25 average bets. If I was an average player who loses 2% I could not afford $25 average bets for long. Plus I can afford to lose a week's salary I just have to go back to work for a week. I'm a pretty good saver and have managed to save over $9,000 in one year of working at the Casino. That is way above average savings for my income level.

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