Hey all, brand new member here
  • Hey everybody, I signed up a couple of weeks ago and was finally able to post just a few days ago. I'm a fairly advid blackjack player, I'm also about a year new to playing it. I started learning about blackjack when I was in college and majoring in finance, I learned how to count cards, and learned how to do an awesome job at doing so. I'll do the typical things, stay on 15 against a 10 if I know it's that time, hit on 14 against a 6, double on a 12. Here's the thing, I've been VERY successful playing BJ many times, but the MANY other times I've been not so successful, and I've found myself dropping $10k, I think the reason for this is patience. I'll be up a few grand sometimes, and then I'll blow it back like a drunken sailor.

    Anyone have ANY idea how to teach patience? Any masters out there located around Illiniois/Wisconsin who'd like to meetup?

    I feel that I'm a damn good player, since I've been booted from all the casinos in IL, HOWEVER, I just can't find the patience, if half of those casinos knew how impatient I was, they woulda let me stick around, but they didn't.

    Anyway's, well that's my intro, and I hope everyone had a great Memorial Day Weekend!!!

    Erik
  • Nugnrfan82 said:
    Hey everybody, I signed up a couple of weeks ago and was finally able to post just a few days ago. I'm a fairly advid blackjack player, I'm also about a year new to playing it. I started learning about blackjack when I was in college and majoring in finance, I learned how to count cards, and learned how to do an awesome job at doing so. I'll do the typical things, stay on 15 against a 10 if I know it's that time, hit on 14 against a 6, double on a 12. Here's the thing, I've been VERY successful playing BJ many times, but the MANY other times I've been not so successful, and I've found myself dropping $10k, I think the reason for this is patience. I'll be up a few grand sometimes, and then I'll blow it back like a drunken sailor.

    Anyone have ANY idea how to teach patience? Any masters out there located around Illiniois/Wisconsin who'd like to meetup?

    I feel that I'm a damn good player, since I've been booted from all the casinos in IL, HOWEVER, I just can't find the patience, if half of those casinos knew how impatient I was, they woulda let me stick around, but they didn't.

    Anyway's, well that's my intro, and I hope everyone had a great Memorial Day Weekend!!!

    Erik

    Erik,
    There is no such a play where you hit 14 vs. 6 or double on hard 12. You cannot get any edge by playing this way. You just have to play well at all times in order to win in this game. Betting your chips is an integral part of your winning strategy. You must have a bankroll dedicated to the game. Say, 1000 units. All your betting decisions are based on that number. The more you win the bigger your unit becomes while upholding that 1000 unit bank. When you lose you cut your unit down to be within the 1000 unit bank. This way your ROR will be the same. If you have a bank of $25,000 you can play green chips action with a spread of 5:1. Play at that level until your bank becomes $30K. At that point your unit is $30 and you bet from 30 to 150. When your double the bank your unit doubles too. If you lose half your bank, cut unit in two. You don’t get attached to your bank. You just play like a robot. Makes no difference what the count is. You just bet minimum in negative regardless what unit you may have at any point. For example: if you quadrupled your bank to 100K and the count gets to be say –5, you bet $100 regardless how much you bet 6 months ago when your bank was 25K and you’ve been playing with green chip units.

    Your most important strategy decisions for Single Deck game are: INSURANCE, 15 and 16 vs. 9,T and 12 vs, 2,3,4,5,6 and probably when NOT to double based on the count.

    14 vs 6 and doubling on hard 12 have no value whatsoever.
  • Alex,

    Thanks for the info. I totally know how to play with an advantage, as well as how to play basic strategy. Most of the time I take hits such as a 14 against a 6, I have a GOOD idea that a 7 or lower is coming, and most of the time when I hit I have less than $500 on the table. I think my problem is this,I'll give everyone a scenario (and I know it's stupid, I just need to find some way to fix it).

    A few weeks ago I was at the casino in Milwaukee WI in the high limit room. I started off with a $2,000 buy in, and started playing with all black chips. I put $200 down to start off, won, then I put $400 down, won. I laid off some and put $300, and won, so now I'm up $900. I got greedy and threw the whole $900 on there, blackjack!!! So I'm up $2,250. I laid my bets off for a while, then 2 hours later I'm up $9,000. So I have $11,000 of chips on the table, I started betting $500 hands, and another 2 hours later I'm up about $20k. Being an idiot, I wouldn't leave, I TOLD myself if I got down to $12k up, I would leave. Well I put $5,000 on one hand and get a pair of 8's against a 5, so of COURSE I split, I get a 3 and double, and I get a 7, on the other 8 I get a King, so I'm sitting there with $15k on the table. The person next to me decides to hit a 12, even though I was begging them not to (if I had $500 or less, then I'm fine with it, but not with this amount of money). So they take a face card, and I'm say "damnit!!", the dealer flips and shows a 10, so now he has 15 total, next card is an ace, and the next card is a freaking FIVE! I remember I wasn't phased emotionally, but I was psychologically.

    So I still had the five grand I was up, plus my 2 grand I bought in with, and in a matter of minutes I had depleted 65% of my bank, needless to say I went nuts and blew it all back.

    In a situation as this when you are given the oppurtunity to split and double you should take it, right? Even if it means you could blow a substantial amount of your $$ away? Or should you be safe and do nothing of the sort?

    I guess I find myself at a crossroads, I have a great job that allows me to bet high amounts of money, but on the other hand I find myself blowing my money back after I lose a few hands. I'd consider myself an excellent card counter as well as an excellent better, but my patience really demeans my excellence.

    I think if I could get my patience down pat, then I would be a substantially better player. Is there anyway to work on patience in BJ? Any ideas?

    Thanks everyone!

    Erik
  • Nugnrfan82 said:
    Alex,

    Thanks for the info. I totally know how to play with an advantage, as well as how to play basic strategy. Most of the time I take hits such as a 14 against a 6, I have a GOOD idea that a 7 or lower is coming, and most of the time when I hit I have less than $500 on the table. I think my problem is this,I'll give everyone a scenario (and I know it's stupid, I just need to find some way to fix it).

    A few weeks ago I was at the casino in Milwaukee WI in the high limit room. I started off with a $2,000 buy in, and started playing with all black chips. I put $200 down to start off, won, then I put $400 down, won. I laid off some and put $300, and won, so now I'm up $900. I got greedy and threw the whole $900 on there, blackjack!!! So I'm up $2,250. I laid my bets off for a while, then 2 hours later I'm up $9,000. So I have $11,000 of chips on the table, I started betting $500 hands, and another 2 hours later I'm up about $20k. Being an idiot, I wouldn't leave, I TOLD myself if I got down to $12k up, I would leave. Well I put $5,000 on one hand and get a pair of 8's against a 5, so of COURSE I split, I get a 3 and double, and I get a 7, on the other 8 I get a King, so I'm sitting there with $15k on the table. The person next to me decides to hit a 12, even though I was begging them not to (if I had $500 or less, then I'm fine with it, but not with this amount of money). So they take a face card, and I'm say "damnit!!", the dealer flips and shows a 10, so now he has 15 total, next card is an ace, and the next card is a freaking FIVE! I remember I wasn't phased emotionally, but I was psychologically.

    So I still had the five grand I was up, plus my 2 grand I bought in with, and in a matter of minutes I had depleted 65% of my bank, needless to say I went nuts and blew it all back.

    In a situation as this when you are given the oppurtunity to split and double you should take it, right? Even if it means you could blow a substantial amount of your $$ away? Or should you be safe and do nothing of the sort?

    I guess I find myself at a crossroads, I have a great job that allows me to bet high amounts of money, but on the other hand I find myself blowing my money back after I lose a few hands. I'd consider myself an excellent card counter as well as an excellent better, but my patience really demeans my excellence.

    I think if I could get my patience down pat, then I would be a substantially better player. Is there anyway to work on patience in BJ? Any ideas?

    Thanks everyone!

    Erik


    I thought you said you were counting cards? If so, then your betting scheme needs a _lot_ of work. Your bet should be proportional to your advantage before the first card is dealt that round. You don't "lay back some" or "just put out $900". Not if you are really counting cards. Also, you said you are "doing an awesome job of counting". I'm not sure how you are evaluating that, but no book I own would support that conclusion.

    You bet what the count dictates (unless you need some camo to avoid heat). You play as the count dictates (where you should hit/stand/double/take insurance).

    Somehow your entire post is completely at odds with your statement about being a card counter...

    BTW, "patience" is not in a counter's vocabulary. You simply play as many hands as you can, as quickly as possible, following your system precisely. So that you can reach N0 (the long term) as quickly as possible. Otherwise it doesn't matter where you stop play and resume, unless you are Wonging to avoid negative counts of course.
  • Nugnrfan82 said:Most of the time I take hits such as a 14 against a 6, I have a GOOD idea that a 7 or lower is coming
    Nugnrfan82 said:


    I put $200 down to start off, won, then I put $400 down, won. I laid off some and put $300, and won, so now I'm up $900. I got greedy and threw the whole $900 on there…

    So I have $11,000 of chips on the table, I started betting $500 hands…

    Well I put $5,000 on one hand and get a pair of 8's against a 5, so of COURSE I split, I get a 3 and double, and I get a 7, on the other 8 I get a King, so I'm sitting there with $15k on the table.

    The person next to me decides to hit a 12, even though I was begging them not to (if I had $500 or less, then I'm fine with it, but not with this amount of money).

    …in a matter of minutes I had depleted 65% of my bank, needless to say I went nuts and blew it all back.


    For the quotes above I can already tell that you are not a winning player. Aside from the superstition about other people’s play, your betting is completely haphazard. It doesn’t matter how good of a card counter you are, if you are not betting properly (as Alex pointed out) then you are not playing a winning game and will eventually go broke. Read Alex’s post again, study some proportional betting styles, then come up with a betting strategy that will suit your bankroll and STICK TO IT! If you don’t then you will just keep losing your money back.

    Nugnrfan82 said:In a situation as this when you are given the oppurtunity to split and double you should take it, right? Even if it means you could blow a substantial amount of your $$ away? Or should you be safe and do nothing of the sort?

    Yes, you should ALWAYS make the correct play. Any time you deviate from the proper strategy it will increase the house edge and cost you money. Once you learn how to bet your money properly you will not have to worry about blowing substantial amounts on one hand.

    -Sonny-
  • Thanks for the input guys, however, I've always tried to do my "own" card counting. I believe in the books, but in order for their statistical odds to work, it takes thousands and thousands of hands, right? And for everyone who counts, do you ever stay on a 12-16 against a face showing? Many times I stay, and the dealer breaks, because my count has shown me that there is a high probability of him doing so.

    As for betting correctly, I'm guessing that's my issue, right? There have been nights I've walked away with $20k, and nights I've lost $10k and more. When I studied card counting all I studied was how to track and memorize cards, not how to bet accordingly. Does anyone have a link for reading material, etc?


    Also, anyone located around Illinois (out here in the burbs) or Wisconsin/Indiana? I'd be interested in meeting up with someone who could discretely teach me a few tricks.


    Thanks again for the pointers, and sorry if I wasted anyones time!
    Erik
  • Nugnrfan82 said:
    Thanks for the input guys, however, I've always tried to do my "own" card counting. I believe in the books, but in order for their statistical odds to work, it takes thousands and thousands of hands, right? And for everyone who counts, do you ever stay on a 12-16 against a face showing? Many times I stay, and the dealer breaks, because my count has shown me that there is a high probability of him doing so.

    As for betting correctly, I'm guessing that's my issue, right? There have been nights I've walked away with $20k, and nights I've lost $10k and more. When I studied card counting all I studied was how to track and memorize cards, not how to bet accordingly. Does anyone have a link for reading material, etc?


    Also, anyone located around Illinois (out here in the burbs) or Wisconsin/Indiana? I'd be interested in meeting up with someone who could discretely teach me a few tricks.


    Thanks again for the pointers, and sorry if I wasted anyones time!
    Erik


    there are basic strategy departures for every last basic strategy decision you can make. But nobody tries to learn that many playing indices because they have a tiny effect on your bottom line over time.

    But, if you are doing your own system, there is little chance anyone here can help you unless you post the specific card tag values, and then the bs departure indices you play.

    For those of us using hi-lo, and taking one one of your examples, I stand on 16 vs 10 when the TC is zero or higher. At negative TC values I hit 16 vs 10.

    Card counting is not about "memorizing cards". It is simply a methodology that lets you determine when there are extra large cards in the remaining cards, which gives you an advantage over the house since stiffs are more likely to break (and the house must hit stiffs while you do not) and since with more 10's and A's in the remaining decks, you have an increased chance for a snapper. Counting cards is not about being a "Rain Man"...
  • All card counting systems are good for betting efficiancy. Some systems are much better than others for play efficiancy. But all recognized card counting systems will win money even those that are fairly poor for play efficiancy. What this means is that placing the proper sized bet is way more important than changes to basic strategy determined by the count. On the average, the use of indices adds 20% to your profit or you could use none and still make a profit.
    The opposite is not true. Flat bet or raise your bet by your gut and play all the indices you wish and still fall victim to the house edge, you lose.
    Somehow in your study of counting you missed this important fact. The progression should be learn basic strategy perfectly, learn to count perfectly including how much to bet at what count, and then the gravy (counting w/bet sizing is the meat) is changing your play according to the count.

    ihate17
  • Nugnrfan82 said:
    Alex,

    Thanks for the info. I totally know how to play with an advantage, as well as how to play basic strategy. Most of the time I take hits such as a 14 against a 6, I have a GOOD idea that a 7 or lower is coming, and most of the time when I hit I have less than $500 on the table. I think my problem is this,I'll give everyone a scenario (and I know it's stupid, I just need to find some way to fix it).

    A few weeks ago I was at the casino in Milwaukee WI in the high limit room. I started off with a $2,000 buy in, and started playing with all black chips. I put $200 down to start off, won, then I put $400 down, won. I laid off some and put $300, and won, so now I'm up $900. I got greedy and threw the whole $900 on there, blackjack!!! So I'm up $2,250. I laid my bets off for a while, then 2 hours later I'm up $9,000. So I have $11,000 of chips on the table, I started betting $500 hands, and another 2 hours later I'm up about $20k. Being an idiot, I wouldn't leave, I TOLD myself if I got down to $12k up, I would leave. Well I put $5,000 on one hand and get a pair of 8's against a 5, so of COURSE I split, I get a 3 and double, and I get a 7, on the other 8 I get a King, so I'm sitting there with $15k on the table. The person next to me decides to hit a 12, even though I was begging them not to (if I had $500 or less, then I'm fine with it, but not with this amount of money). So they take a face card, and I'm say "damnit!!", the dealer flips and shows a 10, so now he has 15 total, next card is an ace, and the next card is a freaking FIVE! I remember I wasn't phased emotionally, but I was psychologically.

    So I still had the five grand I was up, plus my 2 grand I bought in with, and in a matter of minutes I had depleted 65% of my bank, needless to say I went nuts and blew it all back.

    In a situation as this when you are given the oppurtunity to split and double you should take it, right? Even if it means you could blow a substantial amount of your $$ away? Or should you be safe and do nothing of the sort?

    I guess I find myself at a crossroads, I have a great job that allows me to bet high amounts of money, but on the other hand I find myself blowing my money back after I lose a few hands. I'd consider myself an excellent card counter as well as an excellent better, but my patience really demeans my excellence.

    I think if I could get my patience down pat, then I would be a substantially better player. Is there anyway to work on patience in BJ? Any ideas?

    Thanks everyone!

    Erik

    Here is the cure for your play:

    The basic idea of card counting is that you know when you have edge and how much that edge is. Off course all this is within reason. Is all approximation but is a very good estimation of how the edge fluctuates between you and the house based on the true count.

    You bet your money as a function of that edge. The more edge you have as the TC climbs the more you bet. The more your bank expands the bigger your unit becomes while maintaining that 1000 unit bank. I’m referring here 1000 unit bank just to be on the safe side. Not getting involved now in details of Kelly betting but if you maintain a bank of 1000 units you will probably be playing very safe if you’re willing to cut the unit down in half when you lose half of your bank and double the unit when you double the previous bank.

    It becomes very hard nowadays to pull big action in casinos but the basic idea is that you have to bet as a function of your edge and your bank. Not just the edge is important of just the bank. Both variables come into play here. With a 1000 unit bank you can safely bet TC x unit up to 5 units max bet. But you’ve got to hold that bank/unit ratio at all times.

    Erik,
    This is the secret: You must want it bad. You must want it very bad. Wanting it really bad isn’t enough in and of itself. You must be willing to do what it takes to get there. You must work hard. Really hard!
    If you claim that you have a great job where you make lots of money than I must say this: You aren’t going to get a job in real world making six figures without great deals of effort, education and drive and you aren’t going to do it at the blackjack tables either. You have to transfer the qualities (effort, education and drive) that you have for your regular job to the tables when you play.

    You must start low and build it big. You start with $5 unit and a $5000 bank. Bet 5:1 ($25:$5) as a function of the TC. Make this a goal for yourself and see how long it takes you to double 5K into 10K. Keep records. When you have 10K your unit becomes $10 and you bet the same ratio of 5:1 ($50:$10). Try to double one more time from 10K to 20K and your unit will be $20. Bet now $100:$20. Play like that until you reach 40K. Keep records at all times. Now stop and look back and see how you become a different player. You have discipline. You will know how this BJ business is done. You will NEVER go back to your old habits of betting like you do now.

    Is almost “criminal” to call somebody a “pro” while betting $5 chips. But you must learn discipline. You play units. You start low and build it up. If you want it bad, real bad you will manage to get there.

    BUT if you start big because you have lots of cash now and bet reckless you will go down and NEVER master the game. You will never know how is done.
  • Your game is pretty hopeless,but here is a kernal of advice you might find very useful.
    When you have a huge bet out,and another player is about to do something stupid that you know is going to cost you money-just buy his bet off him.
    All that player wants out of a bad hand is a push is to win,so if he has a $100 bet out,he'll most likely be happy to let you buy the hand for his original bet.
    In the real world,it doesn't make a difference,but it will buy you some peace of mind.
  • Thanks for the advice everyone!

    NYB,
    I offered to pay the guy triple his bet, he still wouldn't budge. As for my game being hopeless, I'm still up over $10k since I started, so I wouldn't say it's that hopeless. I've had a few nights that are unbelievable and a few terrible ones, but the unbelievable nights have thus far out weighed the bad ones, although I do worry that my impulsive play will soon get the best of me. I'll write more about what I've learned so far on here as well. Everything everyone has written has been taken in and has been read carefully, I really truly appreciate what everyone has said.

    Erik
  • Come on.Give me a break.
    You offered to buy the guys bet for triple and he turned you down?
    Just to spite you, I suppose.Thats as believable as you being up $10,000.
  • Believe what you want. I've noticed throughout all of your posts on this message board a sense of arrogance, I figured once I posted I'd run into you, and you'd somehow try to bestow me with your "knowledge", all the time while being both cocky and cynical.

    Believe what you want. If you live around the Midwest, you're more than welcome to come play with me sometime, and then you can post what you'd like, until then, please refrain from assuming that I'm a liar.

    As for the guy who wouldn't take the money, he had $400 on the hand, I think, and said "I don't want your money, I play my own game".


    Erik
  • The guy has a $400 bet out. Rather than accept your $1200,he trys to win $400. OKAY.
    As far as bestowing my knowledge on you,don't worry. I'm more than willing to help anyone that is interested in learning the game,but you already totally know when to hit a 14 because a 7 is due.I'm afraid there's not much I can teach someone with that ability.
  • Whatever man, I've got no beef for you, I'm just not looking to be called a liar. As I said, you're more than welcome to come play with me sometime. As for never having to deal with the situation I just described, that's pretty lucky, I've had it happen a few times. Maybe it's just the stubborn players in IL and Wiscy.

    Erik

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