Basic Strategy Only
  • I think DAS was standard equipment in Las Vegas before the big Thorp shakeup. So was re-splitting Aces There's something to research, never heard of that one.. :?:
  • TED: There is one thing you do have wrong. Your second test (splitting) should just be 100 initial hands, the same as if you didn't split. You will however, get in 200+ hands there due to your splits and re-splits. But you must use the same number of STARTING hands to be comparing apples to apples.
    Also, there's a possible pitfall with 6/6 vs. 2 since there's not such a decisive difference between their mathematical outcomes. Probalistically, I think there's about a 17% chance that not splitting will turn out better by pure chance over the course of 100 vs. 100 hands. I would commit to playing the hand 250 starting times each way to get that chance down to about 10%. It should really take only a couple of hours -- you'll get in around 16 hit-hands per double deck and maybe 11 split hands.
    It's a good exercise if you want to get to where you play all your hands with the confidence that you're giving yourself your best shot.
  • Here are the results of my little experiment:

    The idea was to play 6/6 without splitting and 6/6 with splitting. All the hands were played against a dealer deuce. The dealer always had a 10 in the hole. I played a total of 267 hands in each instance. The results for not splitting were as follows:

    Player busted 133 times. (This means that the first card the player was dealt was a 10. This happened 133 times.)
    Dealer busted 54 times.
    Player won 34 hands. (no one busted)
    Dealer won 28 hands. (no one busted)
    There were 18 pushes.

    The results for splitting with DAS allowed:
    Player won 114 hands. (no doubling)
    Dealer won 107 hands.
    Player won 25 DAS hands.
    Dealer won 17 DAS hands.
    There were 4 pushes.

    Basic strategy rules were used. I don't know if this standard will hold up over millions of hands, but if it does, Scarne was nuts when he said he never splits sixes.
  • Now that I did my little experiment, which took about 5 hours, I ain't happy with the way I played this out. Let me repeat how I did this. I took 3 decks of cards. From one of the decks, I took a Jack and a deuce and gave them to the dealer. I placed both the Jack and deuce face up, as I knew I was playing against the deuce. I just did it that way so it would be easier to pick up the cards after each hand more easily. From that same deck I took a pair of 6's. I laid them in front of me as though I were splitting them. I then took that deck and just put it away. I then took 2 other decks and I hit the first six and then I hit the second 6. From this point on I played basic strategy.

    Now here is what bothers me. I knew that I was playing against the deuce.
    But, didn't I place the dealer in an unfair position? Shouldn't I have dealt the dealer a different hole card on each deal? If I were the dealer I would rather have had a 9, 8, 7 or 6 in the hole rather than a 10. I think I should have but I simply can't work out the math. I know I'm supposed to assume that the dealer has a 10 in the hole, but he doesn't of course.

    What am I doing wrong here?
  • I think you're right, Ted. IMO, you should give the dealer a 2 up, but a new hole card for each hand.
  • TED: You made the same mistake that most others make while playing the game -- assuming that the dealer has a 10 in the hole. This is wrong! The dealer will have some other card in the hole 70% of the time! The results you got tell you how you would make out with 6/6 against a 12 -- NOT against a deuce!
    Also, you should not take the dealer's and player's starting cards from some other deck without using that remaining deck to play out the hands. Neither of these provisions duplicated the condition for which you're seeking an answer to -- although the second mistake was very minor.
    Whenever you conduct an experiment, be sure to always think literally and logically.
  • Renzey said:
    TED: You made the same mistake that most others make while playing the game -- assuming that the dealer has a 10 in the hole. This is wrong! The dealer will have some other card in the hole 70% of the time! The results you got tell you how you would make out with 6/6 against a 12 -- NOT against a deuce!
    Also, you should not take the dealer's and player's starting cards from some other deck without using that remaining deck to play out the hands. Neither of these provisions duplicated the condition for which you're seeking an answer to -- although the second mistake was very minor.
    Whenever you conduct an experiment, be sure to always think literally and logically.


    OK....I'll do it over but this time I will use 2 decks only. I will give the dealer a deuce. I will take two sixes out of the deck and give them to myself. I will always split the sixes. I will deal the first card from the deck to the dealer and that will be his hole card.

    Now I have a new question. I have 2 sixes face up. The dealer gives the six on my right one up card. He then gives the six on my left an up card. I then decide if I want to hit or stand on the six to my right and after that I decide what I want to do with the six on my left. Is it done that way or do I play the six on my right to it's completion and then play the six on my left to it's completion. I've played enuf splits but, I just have forgotten which way it is done.

    Now, after the sixes have been played I will play out the dealers hand.
    But the key thing for me is that I must give the dealer a new hole card every hand. That's correct isn't it? I get the feeling that these are pain in the ass type questions, but I'm trying to do something here. I need the correct procedure and then I will be able to conduct my own little experiments without breaking chops, or balls, whichever is easiest.
  • Ted, one of your questions was: "Now I have a new question. I have 2 sixes face up. The dealer gives the six on my right one up card. He then gives the six on my left an up card. I then decide if I want to hit or stand on the six to my right and after that I decide what I want to do with the six on my left. Is it done that way or do I play the six on my right to it's completion and then play the six on my left to it's completion. I've played enuf splits but, I just have forgotten which way it is done."

    You play the six on the right to its completion, then you work on the six on the left. The dealer doesn't deal ANY cards to the six on the left until the play on the six on the right is finished.

    That one was easy. I'll let the smarter guys answer your harder questions.
  • TED: To answer your last question; Yes, the dealer must get a new hole card every hand. It doesn't really matter at all when he gets it though. You could give it to him face-up before you play your 6's, or you could give it to him after you've completed all your own play (this is another example of the "random card axiom" and why it doesn't matter to anybody else how third base plays his hand). What matters is that the dealer (and you) gets new, random cards to play every hand.
    Also, be sure that you play as many STARTING hands for your "split" sample as for your "hit" sample so that you end up playing twice as many hands when you split as when you just hit. Recognize that each time you hit 6/6 against a deuce, you play one hand -- and each time you split 6/6 against a deuce you play 2 hands. It's the combined results of those two split hands that you want to compare to the results of just hitting a single hand of 6/6.
  • Here are the results of my experiment:

    Played 105 hands and DID NOT split the sixes:
    Won 30 hands
    Lost 70 hands
    Pushed 5 times

    NET RESULT: Lost 40 units.

    Played 210 hand and SPLIT the sixes every hand.
    Lost 104 hands
    Won 64 hands.
    At this point I am down 40 units.
    DAS wins: 26
    DAS losses: 9
    The 9 DAS losses cancel out 9 of the 26 DAS wins.
    So I have 17 DAS WINS.
    NET WINS from DAS: 34 units.
    7 pushes

    NET RESULT: Lost 6 units.

    Now tell me I didn't figure it out right.
  • A good friend asked me this one--When would you not hit soft 18 against dealer's ace? I always hit it, but I'm thinking that there might be times not to do it.
  • In a S17 shoe game for non-counters, stand if the board contains at least 5 more babies than 10's, otherwise hit. But if the game is H17, always hit that hand.
  • Desert Dog said:
    Ted, one of your questions was: "Now I have a new question. I have 2 sixes face up. The dealer gives the six on my right one up card. He then gives the six on my left an up card. I then decide if I want to hit or stand on the six to my right and after that I decide what I want to do with the six on my left. Is it done that way or do I play the six on my right to it's completion and then play the six on my left to it's completion. I've played enuf splits but, I just have forgotten which way it is done."

    You play the six on the right to its completion, then you work on the six on the left. The dealer doesn't deal ANY cards to the six on the left until the play on the six on the right is finished.

    That one was easy. I'll let the smarter guys answer your harder questions.



    I ain't gonna know for sure until the 15th of Sept. when I go AC again. But, I was playing "THE GAME" at the Hit or Stand site and I got a pair of 6's. I pressed the button to "split". The dealer gave each 6 an up card and then returned to the first 6 and asked what I wanted to do. This contradicts what you said in a previous message. The economy of the country depends on this answer. :wink:
  • Now that you mention it, I think you're right that "the game" here does that, but that's not how it's done for real, or in other simulation software.
  • Renzey said:
    In a S17 shoe game for non-counters, stand if the board contains at least 5 more babies than 10's, otherwise hit. But if the game is H17, always hit that hand.


    HUH??? Why would you want to stand...EVER? And if the board contains 5 more babies than 10's, what's the hurt in hitting since you're more likely of getting a 10 and have the 18 anyway (rather than just stand and not have the extra chance of getting dealt an Ace, for example)?? I just dont see any risk at all in hitting it, regardless of what is out.
  • BUG: When you've got a soft 18 against an Ace, the little cards are what helps you if you hit. No little cards -- no help! Also, the more little cards there are, the more likely the dealer will rip off a multi-card killer hand. Remember, unlike with Ace/7 against a 9 or 10, the dealer can't have a 10 in the hole.

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