*STUBBORN* BJ Friend... Please Help!
  • Alright, so I got this real good friend who sometimes plays BJ with me. For those of you who dont know, I'm a flawless Basic Strategist who is a Progression better and lately have been semi-successful with Thomason's Progression. Anyway, that is not the problem. My friend is tooooooo stubborn to believe that BS is simply the RIGHT way to go, thinks splitting 9's is stupid JUST BECAUSE the 2 times he did it (when I told him to while we were playing at the same table) he ended up losing both times and even the dealer was saying "bad move" and all this... stupid dealers, §igh, anyway that's a whole nother issue that I wont get into at this time. I've told him countless times that this is the best way to go, but he always just says "i've done that lots of times already and i always lose" and I've also tried explaining to him that in the LONG RUN you will be better off -- but still that doesn't work!!!

    He basically uses SEMI-BS, but not anywhere NEAR perfect. He knows the elementary moves like standing on a stiff against 2-6 and standing on 17-20 against all, but when he gets a soft hand, or a splitting hand he's totally clueless. Believe me, I have tried everything on him for him to believe that BS is the way to go, he's a real good friend, but is just too stubborn to listen to me everytime I explain to him about BS. Also, he says he's talked to people that say "Basic strategy is a waste of time" and "it only works half the time" ... I've told him that NOTHING is 100% when it comes to gambling, otherwise it wouldn't be called GAMBLING! He is just extremely hardheaded when it comes to Basic Strategy but I care for him and dont want him to end up losing MORE money then he should be, just because of his haphazard playing style.... any suggestions???

    ALL FEEDBACK WELCOME ON HELPING ME CONVERT THIS GUY TO A FLAWLESS BASIC STRATEGIST!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Let HIM play the way HE wants to. He can still be your friend!
  • speaking as a stubborn person,

    you cannot & will not convince him. the only way he will change, is if he wants to. you are better off just playing your way and letting him play his way. just enjoy yourself and dont worry about him or his money. save yourself the headache.

    the only other angle.... is to make it seem like its his idea to change.
  • You are challenging his ego by telling him you're right and he's wrong. He doesn't care which move is better, he just wants to be right and he doesn't care about logic as long as he's right.

    Make sure you tell him that BS is not your idea, but it was precisely determined by experts.

    Some moves can be explained: When you split 99, consider that you most likely next card is a 10. Now you have two 19s vs. 2-6 and 8-9. You stand against 7 because you have a "guaranteed" win against a 17.

    If your friend is mathematically inclined, you can show him Cacarulo's EV tables at BJmath.com. But from what you said, it sounds like he's not.

    Tell him that mathmeticians have done all the work for him and figured out the best move for every situation.

    Make sure you tell him some moves take a terrible hand and make it into just a bad hand. He'll get this if he knows to stand with 16v2, usually a loser, but less of loser than hitting 16v2. Splitting 99v9 is a loser, but you lose more by standing!

    He might be embarrassed that he can't remember the soft-hand doubles, so he gives up before he tries. Tell him soft doubles get more money on the table when you think the dealer might bust. Some soft doubles are hit, because you just might get a shit card next and you still get a chance for another card. (Like A2v4. If you get a 3, you can take another card). And every time you double a soft hand, you have a 1 in 13 chance of ending up with 21. (that's why you don't double 8 - the best you can get is only 19) Mathmeticians have done all the work for you and figured out which are better and which are worse.

    Tell him you'll give him $100 if he can get all the soft totals right - if he puts up ten bucks, you ask him 20 soft totals. If he gets one wrong, you keep the $10. If he gets them all right, give him $100 and you end the game. He won't get it right the first time, but I'll bet it won't take him ten times either.

    If he says he lost twice by splitting 99, keep score when he wins/loses when he stands with 12-16 v 2-6. When he loses more than he wins, ask him why he does such a stupid move!

    --------

    But Bug, YOU need to do your homework too. Make sure you know which hands are losers.
  • Bug- the best way to convince him is for you to make the right plays and just let him play the way he wants to. Never tell him that he is stupid or that he is making the wrong play. All you have to do is win a few times, when he loses and he will figure it out on his own.
  • Thanks all...

    just enjoy yourself and dont worry about him or his money. save yourself the headache.


    But the problem THERE is sometimes he really disagrees with my play (PERFECT BS) and in turn gets onto ME for making a seemingly BAD move in his eyes since he doesn't know BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOW what I am I supposed to do in response to that?!
  • BuGhOu§eMASTER said:
    Thanks all...

    just enjoy yourself and dont worry about him or his money. save yourself the headache.


    But the problem THERE is sometimes he really disagrees with my play (PERFECT BS) and in turn gets onto ME for making a seemingly BAD move in his eyes since he doesn't know BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOW what I am I supposed to do in response to that?!


    Tell him to worry about his own money, and you worry about yours. Over time, you'll win more (or lose less) than he will. He'll either slowly come around to playing BS, or he won't. You can't force him to do it, though (and you shouldn't let him influence your play, esp. when you know that BS is the proper way to go).
  • a new approach: find a table with a bunch of drunken know it alls. when everyone starts whupping at him every time he makes a "dumb" play, he will either stop playing altogether or convert, either way you win. look for a busy game on saturday night.

    OR

    find someone who believes he's messing up the game and taking the dealers cards, then set your pal up at third base

    OR

    get him good and drunk and steal his chips... he's giving them away anyway

    OR

    send him wizardofodds.com

    OR

    don't make friends with people like that, it makes you look bad.

    OR

    ask him if he is so brilliant that he has somehow in 4 hours of play figured out what mathmaticians and MIT professors have struggled to do for 50 years... found a way to beat the game, i mean all he needs to do is gain 1/2 % over what has been established. have him share it with the rest of us please.

    MAYBE he knows something we don't. have him right out his "rules"... maybe once in writing he will see the folly of his ways


    all intent in intended for comical use, any material herein is not meant to offend or disturb any participants.
  • Bug - Is your friend totally retarded or is he just extremely slow? 8)
    - Have you told him that the basic strategy you are trying to teach him was developed by Phd's of Mathematics and the best computers in the world?
    - Have you shown him the books that explain basic strategy? Why don't you try that if you haven't. If the guy is a college student like yourself, I sincerely hope he believes in the "written word". Hardly worth attending classes if he doesn't.
    - Go one step further and buy, or get from the library, Peter Griffin's book "The Theory of Blackjack". It analyzes and goes into the 'whys' of basic strategy.
    - If that fails, I'm with the others.....forget about him and play your game. You are not going to convince him of anything until he loses his money. In the meantime, don't let him try and convince you The Pope is a Southern Baptist. :wink:

    Regards....Grifter
  • Grifter said:
    Bug - Is your friend totally retarded or is he just extremely slow? 8)
    - Have you told him that the basic strategy you are trying to teach him was developed by Phd's of Mathematics and the best computers in the world?
    - Have you shown him the books that explain basic strategy? Why don't you try that if you haven't. If the guy is a college student like yourself, I sincerely hope he believes in the "written word". Hardly worth attending classes if he doesn't.
    - Go one step further and buy, or get from the library, Peter Griffin's book "The Theory of Blackjack". It analyzes and goes into the 'whys' of basic strategy.
    - If that fails, I'm with the others.....forget about him and play your game. You are not going to convince him of anything until he loses his money. In the meantime, don't let him try and convince you The Pope is a Southern Baptist. :wink:

    Regards....Grifter


    Yes I've told him Basic Strategy is the computer derived best play, etc. etc. Like I said he just says something like "they only say that because they want you to buy their books", pretty frustrating!!!

    No, the guy is an older fellow.
  • Bug - I'm an older fellow too, you know that.....In fact I'm downright old!! BUT, I'll still listen to you young bucks if you got sumpin' smart to say.

    Guess your friend won't do that......Here's the last thing I suggest you could try.......... You mentioned splitting 9's.....Do this.
    - Take six decks, and put two nines in front of you (your hand and his). Give the dealer a five. You will both play this hand.
    - Shuffle the decks and deal the rest of hand out......He will stand with the two nines and you will split.
    - Play this hand 100 times.....You will win more units than he does !!!! And maybe, just maybe, you will convince him.

    Good luck......Regards....Grifter
  • I have played at tables with people of that ilk. Generally I don't respond to complaints at the table about other people's play.... its their money and they're free to lose it if they wish. Its gambling.... people take risks... informed or not.

    Having said that, if I notice that the improper play keeps resulting in a dealer win vs. a loss, I leave. If such results in a dealer loss vs. a win, I stay. I don't care if its my friend or not.

    Blackjack is NOT a team sport w/ appologies to MIT. Generally, it is not good play to sit at a table with friends unless there's a system afoot. Casinos are aware of team play, and it DOES occur. Consider a team to also mean 3 players using hi-lo at a full table.... although the participants are unknown to each other.

    N&B
  • Say this to him:

    " You just do your thing. If you decide to get serious about Blackjack, let me know. I can teach you alot. If you choose to keep screwing around at the BJ tables, so be it, I've done what I could. "
  • BUG: Your friend is a gambler, right? Offer him a bet he can't refuse. Shuffle six decks together. Take out two 9's. Give the dealer an 8 up. Typical non-believers dislike this split of 9's most of all. Offer him 3-to-2 odds on the wager size of your choice. You bet on the splits -- he takes the pat 18's. Stay pat with the pair of 9's and play the dealer's 8 out 150 times. This will take less than one time through the six deck pack (there's no need to shuffle after each hand). Record the wins losses and pushes. Now re-shuffle the six decks and this time split the 9's (and finish the dealer's 8) 150 more times. You should be roughly 10 bets ahead by standing and 29 bets ahead by splitting. After that, what's left to argue about?
  • BUG: I don't know how that smiley face got in there. The part in parenthsis should've read "(and finish out the dealer's 8 up)"

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