A mistake, and an Improvement
  • I have uncovered a rather dumb error on my part concerning the Dealer Stand Soft 17 charts on my site. It seems I published a 4 deck chart rather than the 6/8 deck chart. (YES there is a difference)

    For those concerned and interested, please label the old charts for DSS17 as 4 decks.

    The new charts are in place. The difference is in surrender 16 vs. 9 and 15 vs. X (X= 10,J,Q,K). Surrender takes place at 2 counts higher than the start count. Since a 4-deck game begins at -1, and a 6/8-deck game begins at -2, the correct surrender score was wrong for 6/8 decks.

    By altering the score correctly, there is a 0.01% increase in PA. You will win 7% more., and have a real 0.200% PA (as opposed to 0.187%). The ratio of Original bet/SD is now 0.879 as opposed to the incorrect 0.8725.

    These changes do NOT affect the DEALER HITS SOFT 17 page.

    "Sorry about that Chief"

    N&B aka Agent 86
  • SPEAKING of errors, if the dealer OVERpays you or pays you when you really only pushed or lost, what should one do?

    Better yet, what would YOU do and what do you think is the right thing to do, in a GAMBLING type of environment that the House already has the advantage too??
  • play by the rules, or you could be arrested, barred, or tossed out.

    Tell'em its a mistake, and properly settle the hand.

    N&B
  • Uhh... but how can they bar/arrest me for NOT SAYING ANYTHING AFTER THEY ALREADY TOOK CARE OF MY HAND?!??!?! Come on.
  • the eye-in-the-sky recorded it. When reviewed, a comment may be placed in your file. (those club cards are nice aren't they!) If you then give em any reason to toss you that will be in the file already.

    BTW, what would happen if the dealer were suspected of over-paying? That DOES warrant supervision in case of player/dealer collusion... Everyone at the table IS being scrutinized in such a case.

    Remember its easier for the house to bar you, than you bar the house!

    N&B
  • Okay first of all why would they REVIEW it in the first place? They have no reason to suspect me of being a card-counter since I never made any gutsy plays like betting the table max all of a sudden then FLAT-betting the rest of the night so therefore that would never happen....

    And if that's not enough, how the hell does the house know that I KNOWINGLY KNEW I was being overpaid? A: THEY DONT! :roll:

    All I'm saying is that I can always make the argument that I didn't realize it was an overpay or whatever and it's all good. Dont you see my point?

    House's mistake, House's problem. Problem solved, eh?
  • AFTER you're in cuffs in the back room explaining it



    this isnt about YOU.... its about the dealer over-paying, and possible collusion. Security will pay attention to that camera. If a player is seated at that table, it becomes much easier to spot counters because people are paying attention to that camera. I wouldnt count cards after being over-paid.

    N&B
  • When the grocery store clerk gives me too much change back, I always kindly acknowledge and return it. It's the right thing to do. However, when a dealer pays me on a push or losing hand, I never mention it. My reasoning is this: Blackjack, to me, is a stressfull game most of the time. The odds are stacked against me. If the dealers are sloppy, it's the house's problem. I look at dealer mistakes in MY favor as a means to eke out a little more advantage since I know, from the start, I have more losing sessions than winning ones. Also, I was walking through the hotel lobby at the Flamingo Hilton last year and noticed a 20$ bill on the polished tile floor. I picked it up, headed straight to the casino, and turned it into a profit. Should I have turned it in to the cage personell instead? Am I right or wrong in my thinking on these issues? And regarding dealers, it has been my experience that payout errors occur on a VERY SMALL percentage of total hands dealt!
  • PJ, I'm glad you totally see and agree with my POV... maybe after Nickels reads your post he'll understand EXACTLY where I'm coming from.
    Exactly, gambling is GAMBLING, grocery store is something else; the clerks aren't out there to TAKE your money... 100% DEAD ON
  • I would give the money back if a dealer overpays me. It is the right thing to do. Honesty always makes for good Karma.
  • I do see where Nickels has a valid point about possible collusion between dealer and player. That's totally a separate issue. I consider myself an honest, hard working, decent human being. However, when I enter a casino, to me it's a battlefield. As Bug says, they have NO problems with snatching up MY money and sending me home a loser! Some of the well known BJ authors out there seem to have the same opinion as I. In my humble thinking, it is the pit crew's job to monitor payouts. When THEY notice a dealer paying me too much, THEY should correct it. Now to REALLY confuse you, I add this: When the cage attendant cashes my chips and mistakenly gives back too much, I , without hesitation, return it! Go Figure.
  • haha, yes yes... a BATTLEFIELD... very nicely said which is exactly what it is!!!
  • PJ- In ALL walks of life, honesty is rated as the most important value when interacting with society. You can decide how you want to rationalize your actions inside a casino, but can you truthfully say that you are totally honest?
    To each is own.
  • Be aware that "free money" can come at a "cost". Say you get paid on a push or a losing hand and say nothing. The pit boss see's it and now he is going to be watching you. Later he may chew out the dealer. You may find, the next time you play with this dealer, he is shuffling early when a lot of small cards are out. He may also tell the other dealers. Picking up ONE bet is not worth being labled a cheat, by the casino. Let your conscience be your guide.
  • I tell the dealer when he overpaysme or pays by mistake. However any money I find on the floor I keep. It is lost property and becomes the property of whoever finds it providing that I do not know who it belongs to. It is not the casino's money.

    Both are rare events. Don't happen often.

    Charles
  • Michigan Dave,
    No, I am not saying my actions are 100% honest. I appreciate all the feedback and comments because I want to know how other players handle the situations I face at the tables. I may need to re-evaluate some elements of my play. That's why I enjoy this forum so much. I can gain much by you and other's comments.
  • Tuffy said it best, "Both are rare events. Don't happen often."

    That's for damn sure.
  • Good point, Midnight. I never considered all the potential fallout and consequences. The "total honesty" policy is beginning to make more sense here. Draw less attention, enjoy more hassle free time at the tables.
  • PJ - You can put it into perspective this way too. Between us, Midnite and I probably play about 500 hours a year........That's about 50,000 hands of blackjack.

    Does one hand really make any difference?....No!.....And would we "sneak" to get one extra win?......No way!
  • Grifter, this discussion reminds me of an interesting experience in Vegas a couple of years ago. I had enjoyed a pretty good win streak one afternoon, called it a day, colored up, cashed in the chips, then retired for the evening. The next morning, upon entering the casino, a player who remembered me from the night before, said "Hey, the pit boss over at table 4 has something for you." To my surprise, they had been holding two $5 chips I forgot to pick up off the table before leaving! I guess there is still some integrity to be found behind enemy lines! Maybe I should give them more benefit of the doubt.
  • Grifter said:
    PJ - You can put it into perspective this way too. Between us, Midnite and I probably play about 500 hours a year........That's about 50,000 hands of blackjack.

    Does one hand really make any difference?....No!.....And would we "sneak" to get one extra win?......No way!


    I dont think that is a very good comparison, Grifter... you 2 are retired, have little obligations and have endless time to go to the casino and gamble unlike us college-attending workhorses so very few of us would get even 250 hours a year gambling BJ.

    What if that one time they overpaid you you had a very large bet out? Every hand counts, especially if the above situation arises if you ask me.
  • tuffy88 said:
    I tell the dealer when he overpaysme or pays by mistake. However any money I find on the floor I keep. It is lost property and becomes the property of whoever finds it providing that I do not know who it belongs to. It is not the casino's money.

    Both are rare events. Don't happen often.

    Charles


    I always tell the dealer when s/he overpays me, except for one time when I knew from the interaction between the dealer and pit boss previously that it was going to result in more grief for the dealer. Usually the honesty is remembered and appreciated. I've gotten complimentary drink coupons for the entire table a couple of times because of this.

    Desert Dog
  • I've gotten complimentary drink coupons for the entire table a couple of times because of this.


    Uhh................ drinks are FREE at the casino so what kind of bunk ass offer was that?! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
  • Bug, once again ALL casino's are not the same. Here, one doesn't serve booze and at the ones that do, you have to Buy it.... All the soft drinks are free, but not the beer or mixed drinks.
  • "Be aware that "free money" can come at a "cost". Say you get paid on a push or a losing hand and say nothing. The pit boss see's it and now he is going to be watching you. Later he may chew out the dealer. You may find, the next time you play with this dealer, he is shuffling early when a lot of small cards are out. He may also tell the other dealers. Picking up ONE bet is not worth being labled a cheat, by the casino. Let your conscience be your guide."

    This is 100% DEAD ON.

    Just a mark on the rating card is all it takes. The boss my be "nice enough" not to chew the dealer out on the floor. And the house IS within their right to label you as such.

    N&B
  • The charts have been pulled down re-evaluated, and replaced.

    A-7 vs. Ace is being evaluated for proper index and is right now STAND.
    This will be updated in the next day or 2.

    N&B
  • Correcting a dealer's mistake, whether in your favor or not, will harm the dealer's confidence, get him more nervous, get the other players to question more hands and raise the attention of the pit boss.

    When a dealer makes a mistake (in your favor), does it really help the dealer to point out his mistake?

    Does surveilance really check EVERY hand to check for dealer errors? Will EVERY dealer error be noticed eventually, if it's not noticed right away?

    Every time you exceed the speed limit, do you call pull over, call 911 and let them know you were speeding and wait patiently for the officer to show up and give you a ticket? Would that be the "honest" thing to do?
  • midnite said:
    Bug, once again ALL casino's are not the same. Here, one doesn't serve booze and at the ones that do, you have to Buy it.... All the soft drinks are free, but not the beer or mixed drinks.


    ??? What kind of gay ass casinos are those? To my understanding all casino's offer FREE drinks, and the one I play at even has free booze thank-you-very-much.
  • Bug, your understanding is wrong. My casino stops serving drinks at midnight and doesn't serve again until 11:00am. I was floored the first time I heard this.
  • Mr. Ed said:
    Correcting a dealer's mistake, whether in your favor or not, will harm the dealer's confidence, get him more nervous, get the other players to question more hands and raise the attention of the pit boss.


    Come on, Ed - Unless you have a totally 'green' dealer, I guarantee you that you are not going to harm his confidence or make him nervous by quietly pointing out a mistake......Occasional errors are expected by the casino, the pit boss, and the dealer himself/herself.
  • Personally, I seem to get underpaid more often than overpaid, but when it does happen I point it out- it's the karma thing mentioned above- I consider it a toke to the bj gods.

    I just read somewhere that money found on floor or coins/credits left in a slot machine actually do belong to the casino and not to the finder. It's a deterrent to the bottom feeders who cruise casinos just looking for forgotten coins (the way I used to do w/ pay phone booths a few years ago).
  • Well, what the heck! It happened! Yesterday I was playing in Lake Charles and in one session the dealer tried to pay me on a push! After all our recent discussions in the forum there was only one thing for me to do. I corrected her right there in front of God, the pit boss, and everybody. She thanked me and said it was probably due to the fact she was fatigued at the end of her shift. See, you folks influenced my play this week! In case you're interested, I lost my limit this trip. Will be back next month to get it back!
  • Cool. You went. I'm going on the 18th and staying for maybe 2 nights. Tower Suite is waiting and everything's set.

    Well you see, some casino's give you a COMP of some sort for being honest like that and catching their mistake but why be sympathetic towards a place like Isle that didn't do SHIT to your honesty? That's why I never stop them from paying me. If they offered or rewarded us with SOMETHING other than some gayass excuse like "oh i must have been fatigued" or "i didn't get enough sleep therefore causing my negative actions" of course I'd be honest with them. But since they're not, screw them! :twisted: :twisted:

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!