16 v 10
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Newbie here, apologies if this has been covered. Can't understand the hi-lo index number for standing on 16 v 10, and its really bugging me that I cant figger it out.
6 deck, S17
16 v 10
Mr Wong in professional blackjack (I think; don't have it in front of me) says stand when hi-lo count is 0 or higher (Hit when <0). (If this presumption is wrong, lemme know).<br />
Regular BS for the hand is hit. Hi-lo is even count, so the count will be 0 or higher 50% of the time or more. (Correct?)
So if its correct to hit when the count is 0 (50% or more of the time), why is basic strategy not stand 16 v 10?
My only thought, which just occurred to me, is this.
BS assumes this is your first hand of the shoe (or when you haven't seen any other cards.)
So if the only cards you see are dealer 10 and your hand, your hand could be:
10, 6 - running count is -1
6, 10 - running count is -1
7, 9 - running count is -1
9, 7 - running count is -1
8, 8 - you wouldn't hit, you'd split
A, 5 - running count is -1
5, A - running count is -1
So that's it. BS implicitly assumes (poor wording, but that's the drift of it) negative count on 16 v 10.
Cool. OK, is that right? -
Exactly! Very good.
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Mr. Ed said:Exactly! Very good.
Heh, he also had a question :)So if its correct to hit when the count is 0 (50% or more of the time), why is basic strategy not stand 16 v 10? -
I think he answered his own question, but here goes:
BS was determined assuming the first 3 cards off the top of the deck (or shoe) are dealt and you now need to make your decision.
Indices are based on the count. The index for 16v10 is zero. (Which means stand at 0 or higher, hit if less than zero)
The first 3 cards are dealt. You get 10,6. The dealer gets 10. The (running) count is -1. You look at your index: hit. You look at your BS card: hit. No conflict. -
Ahh... I got cha
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Speaking of Basic Strategy, yesterday I was presented with the dreaded pair of 8's against a dealer 10. It got nasty when I drew more 8"s after splitting and ended up with three pairs of them things! On the other remaining 8 I drew a 3, doubled down, got a 2 to make 13. Lost'em all! I thought you split 8's to LOSE LESS! It sure felt like I lost ALL!
Whatever, life is only just one LONG session, right? -
Well, you did the right move because IN THE LONGRUN you will lose less than had you just hit your two-8's. You just caught bad cards. I've drawn an Ace to a DD 11 against 7-10 several times and it pisses me off too - but what can you do? Luck was just not on my side!
How much was your bet? You didn't stay at the hotel? You just drove there and back? How long'd it take - about 5 hrs. no? -
TWOBOTTLES: You've got it right on 16 vs. 10 now. And that's also why it's correct even for the pure basic strategist to stand with 16 against a 10 if he has the likes of 8/5/3 vs. 10; 9/4/3 vs. 10; 7/5/4 vs. 10 -- just about any 16 that contains a 4 or a 5. For basic strategy, that's called "the Rule of 45". The card counting is "built-in" (for that hand).
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Bug,
$15 bet X 5 as I remember, $75 loss. Ouch! (on my limited bankroll this trip)
I had a coupon for free night at Isle. Next day I played at Harrahs, dropped $200 there, asked for a room and got it.
Drive usually takes 5 hrs. My last two trips including this one have resulted in losses. I had set a loss limit this time and stuck to it. Isn't it amazing how many successive losing hands you can have in a shoe! Like you, I have a good handle on BS. I did, however, make a HUGE mistake once by splittting 5's against a dealer's 5 up! Lost both hands before realizing what I had done. I think I was so focused on dealer's card, I lost sight of mine. Funny thing about that other dealer who bestowed the multiple 8's that went bad, I went back to her table later and lost the next four hands in a row! I NEVER want to see HER smiling face again. -
You remember her name? Black woman?
Yeah, I just got a postcard offering me more free cash, and I got 2 free hotels that will be used very soon myself. Good stuff. Never played at Harrah's, how is it compared 2 da ISLE? -
First time I ever saw this dealer. Petite, darker skin, crooked teeth.(Not pretty, but smiles a lot, more so when I lose.) She works at Harrahs. This is only my 2nd visit to the IOC. It has larger casino, higher ceilings. I rank both places about the same.
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Which hellhole has better COMPS?
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Harrahs gave me six free nights in a month back in October. I haven't played enough at IOC to make a comparison.
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Whoa dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 6 FREE NIGHTS?!?!??!?!?!?! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
Damn man, how much do you bet a hand, $5,000 the table max?! And I thought me getting 2 nights was good, ha ha ha apparently not! -
They were not consecutive nights, but spread out over the entire month. Are you really impressed, or, are you just poking fun at a greenie BJ player? The first time I ever played there I turned $100 into $1000 in about 4 hrs. at a $5 table and the boss comped me a buffet. They've been giving me stuff ever since.
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Are you really impressed, or, are you just poking fun at a greenie BJ player?
Neither. I am SHOCKED, especially since now you're saying you're a green player...
Turned $100 into a $1000 at a $5 TABLE?!??!?!?!
Damn, AGAIN... how?! You must have bet $25-$50 many times and hit a nice streak eh?! Tell me about it!
So as far as both casinos they both comp about the same?
How much do you bring each time and do you play 25 min. or higher? -
Yes, it was pretty amazing. Started with $10. Got into a couple of good streaks and kept increasing my bets. Some BJ's and double downs on $50 bets helped. When I would lose a hand I dropped back to $10 and waited for another run. It was just one of those rare occasions where everything went right. I colored up and drove home. I usually take about $400. My style is pretty conservative. I grind out the first $100 win with minimum bets, then get a little more ambitious. If things don't go well early and I'm down, I stay with small bets and try to recover. There was one session where I was up about $200 and decided to play two spots of $30 each. I was either winning both hands or pushing with a win/lose situation. Again, Some good splits and double downs on two spots really got me up there. It sure made the five hour drive home less tiring! I've played on a $25 table couple of times this month and last month. I got ahead $500 then lost it all again during one shoe. I still remember the pain, and I learned my lesson.
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I see... pretty good stuff man! So you dont really use a Progression eh? You just play nice and SOLID Basic Strategy all the time, right? Do you implement ADVANCED Basic Strategy when the opportunity arises?
Overall though, based on casino play only, which casino do you enjoy better - Isle or Harrah's over the bridge that I've never visited YET!?! -
The only thing close to a progression I've used is "let it ride" on every other win. I guess thats like parlaying bets. We all like to read about success stories and we all have one. Too bad they are not as common as we would like. I have basic strategy down pretty well. I'm amazed at how many players sitting at my table don't know their BS. I see lots of improper splitting, and standing on 12's when they should hit. You know, real basic errors. I am beginning to now learn and utilize some advanced BS plays form Renzey's book which should fine tune my game. So far, I don't have the desire or committment to count. Right now it seems like a lot of work for just a little more advantage. Maybe you or someone else can persuade me otherwise.
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Hah... careful with your "let it ride" thing... I USED to play that way when I was a TOTALLY newbie to casino BJ but soon realized it's not good cuz you're risking too much betting your winnings each time or doubling it which I would do.... you should try WT's or SLD/Dahl for a nice positive progression...
Yeah, as I've stated before, I have NEVER seen anyone play Perfect BS any time I've been gambling.... With my progression and ADVANCED BS plays, I'm almost certain I play better than over 99% of all the gamblers there...
I'm not much of a counter, I just ALWAYS play flawless BS & implement Advanced BS as well and utilize Offensive & Defensive HAND INTERACTION as well... and of course get my comps at my please...
I was wondering though what casino you thought was better overall...? -
Sorry I forgot to answer that. Since I've been to Harrahs the most, and done fairly well there, and keep getting decent comps, it's OK. The Isle appears to be larger, cleaner, less smoke, less noise. In that respect, the Isle is better. I do plan to go to the Isle more.( As many times as I've done it, I always get nervous driving over that bridge!) You're right about hand interaction. Many missed opportunities there if you're not watching. That reminds me; Explain this: A player to my left, on one hand, offered to place his stack of chips right on top of mine. My hand wasn't all that great. So what was he up to?
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Hah... less smoke? Less noise? Heh, obviously you haven't been to Isle on the weekend! Smoke like a chimney there!!!!!!!!! :(
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Bug, read my previous message again. I edited while you were responding.
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Well what was your hand and dealer showing? Also, do you have AIM? Exchange names if you have...
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And do you mean off to the SIDE of yours instead as if he's doubling for you or splitting for you?
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I had something like an A7 against a dealer's 8. What is AIM? No, he wanted to stack right on top. It was not a splitting or double down situation.
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I thought you said you had something crappy.... Soft 18 is not crapping at all... at least you push if he has 10 in the hole...
But I dont understand still, how can he attempt to place all chips on TOP of yours in that situation if he's not offering to DD for you? Makes no sense to me... -
PJ, you can't change a bet once the cards have been dealt. This guy must have been joking, or an idiot. I'm surprised the dealer didn't jump in and tell you that you can't change a bet after cards have been dealt.
Before the cards a dealt, he can place his bet behind yours. He can then double for less (than you) or choose not to split and only play one hand. You can also make the surrender play and insurance bet independently. He has no say in the "hit" or "stand" decisions. If he places his bet on top of yours, you'll have to ask him for additional money to split, double or take insurance, and he might not pay up if he thinks it's a bad move. I'm not sure about this, but I think that technically, he's giving his money to you and counting on you being a nice guy and hoping you'll pay him if you win. In any event, there is one payoff and there could be a disagreement if he suddenly says, "I put in four red chips, not three". You never want to place your bet on top of anothers (unless you share a bank account) and you never want someone to place a bet on top of yours.
I've only seen the "on top" bet once. I was playing at a $10 table and a guy asks me if he can play behind me. I said sure. He was down to his last pink chip and red chip. After he places his bet, the dealer said he could place his bet on top of mine, but not beside it, because it was less than the table min. The guy was in sad shape and had no idea what the dealer was talking about. After the guy said, "huh?" and "wha?" a few times he walked away without placing his bet. I was relieved because at least this guy would have $7.50 left instead of zero. He could use every penny.
Now Renzey is an expert in this field: but sometimes players "lend" each other money. For example, when splitting or doubling. If someone doubles for less, you can complete their double. If they have two 2s, you can "buy" one of their hands. Your "friend" may have been lending you the chips to double down on your hand. In either case, the bet is placed beside the original. -
I must clarify the situation. The other player offerred to place his bet on TOP of my stack PRIOR TO the dealer pulling the next card from the shoe. At that point, the dealer notified me I could accept or deny the players action. I denied the player's extra chips, then dealer proceeded to give me the A7. I guess the other player had been watching my play, saw me having success, liked my playing decisions, etc. This also happened to me in Las Vegas one time. Could this be an Asian custom, since it happened both times by Asian players? I don't think I'm THAT GOOD that a stranger would arbitrarily add four or five red chips to my betting circle!
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It's happened to me several times, but the other player will place his chips behind mine. It's socially correct to refuse his request, just be polite about it. Make sure you don't let him influence the way you play. Make sure he puts his bet behind yours, so he doesn't give you a problem when you split 8s against an A, or surrender that 16v9.
I find it flattering, but others feel uncomfortable. They'll usually play behind me until I do something "stupid" like hit A7v9 or split 99v8.
Both times were with Oriental men. -
Mr. Ed, I'm glad someone could identify. It's still puzzling to me why a player would play my hand and not their own. I don't, unless it's some kind of hand interaction. But, that's what makes BJ interesting sometime, to see how other people approach the game!
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Very simple: They look at your big pile of chips and their small pile of chips and want a piece of your good fortune.
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PJ you asian?
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My mother is Irish. My dad is from Mississippi. I guess you could say I'm part Asian.
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Now why is "Asian" more politically correct than "Oriental"?
Is Moscow in Asia? Yes
Is Isreal in Asia or Europe? Asia
Is India in Asia or Europe or Australia? Asia
On the other hand, if I say I play at an "Indian" casino, no thinks I'm in New Delhi.
So never mind. -
PJ said:My mother is Irish. My dad is from Mississippi. I guess you could say I'm part Asian.
Hah, so you're a white boy, eh? :) -
(I thought this forum was for Blackjack!.)(No space between...) I didn't really have a choice in the matter, but yes, I'm a proud, All American, (which really means European, right?) white, male, married, overweight, middle-aged, handsome, intelligent, blackjack(no space) playing fool! All BJ players ARE intelligent, right? Oh, and to add, I am also kind and considerate to other BJ players like BuGhOuSeMASTER, who, at times, is known to make the moderators' job much more fun.
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Good point, Mr. Ed.
I think it IS proper to say "Asian" these days. I will have to ask some of my oriental friends. Be careful, though, not to offend your buddies from Israel (Isreal ?) I wonder if there are any casinos in India? -
That's cool PJ... are you going to Isle anytime soon? I'm going Sunday night if you wanna come along! Staying at the tower and everything!!
Also, since you DO agree it's "Blackjack" (no space), how about responding on that topic?! Why does it say "BLACK JACK" on all the tables if it's really BLACKJACK?!?!?! You know what I'm saying? -
Know what, I just may go this weekend. My wife needs more shopping money. I'll keep you posted. When I'm there I will ask the casino manager to replace all of the table felts. That space has to go! No, I can't figure why it's done that way. I don't really care as long as I keep getting MY blackjacks and double downs, or, doubledowns.
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Haha... sweet dude... so you might go on Sunday too? That'd be tight... PM me your cell and I'll give you mine too if that sounds cool.
And yeah, how are other casinos? I think they all have that annoying space, eh?! SO GAY!!! I of all people would notice first, as observant as I am... but you know, the game even on here as that space so......... probably everywhere has that! :(
Lemme know what's up though for, we'll arrive Sunday afternoon and spend the night and leave mid-early afternoon Monday. -
Bah, I guess you didn't end up coming since you never responded back to me!!! :twisted: :twisted:
hahha... :(
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