maxium spiltting hands
  • casino may offer 2-4 spiltting for players

    in some case , spiltting is for getting more profit

    but in some spiltting such as 3 3 vs 7 , 8 8 vs 10 , 6 6 vs 6

    this seems not help you to gain more but just help u to loss a little bit less

    so , is there any rule for such hand only spiltting two hand or still worth to spilt as many as the pair comes again and again ??
  • beyond14 said:

    in some case , spiltting is for getting more profit

    but in some spiltting such as 3 3 vs 7 , 8 8 vs 10 , 6 6 vs 6

    this seems not help you to gain more but just help u to loss a little bit less



    I'm gonna disagree with this one. I'm a 2 times a week player here. I'm not winning big or loosing big either but splitting and doubling is the exact action your looking for. Splitting 8-8 vs a 10 gets you out of heat on a 16. I can't tell you how many 18's I made and/or draw a 3 or 2 on this split. Even better if you can split 3 or 4x. Yes I have lost some 4x splits vs a 5 or 6 but you will win more splits over the long run. Its very exciting to have or watch another player split 3-4 times then get double opportunities along with it. Its why i love this game! :D:)
  • Does it really matter whether the objective in splitting is to gain more or lose less? Not really. So if it the best play was to split it the first time, it would still be the best play to split again (and again) if given the chance.

    But I agree ... in reality, it's still tough to do sometimes. As some of our more knowledgeable posters would say, "Trust the math."

    Good luck!
  • This is an interesting question. As stated,some splits are offensive weapons,some are defensive.
    In Blackjack Bluebook Renzi states that not all splits should be handled the same way. Some splits are worth
    'buying' off a tablemate,while some are not.The implication,to me,is that you shouldn't treat all split pairs alike.Since he says to try to pawn off some bad splits on your tablemates,I'm wondering
    if he'd recommend resplitting them.
    I'm not really sure if the old adage"If worth splitting,it's worth splitting twice" really applies in all situations. I'll be reading to see what the more "experianced" players have to say.
  • A couple of points.

    88 vs 10 is about as bad as it gets. Stand and you are stuck with a 16, hit and the probability of breaking is high. Standing or hitting are losers.

    splitting slightly improves things since occasionally you will win one and lose one. But this is still a losing proposition. Now for "selling". If you split the 8's, you most likely outcome is two 18's. But since on average the dealer finishes with more than 18, those two hands are better than a 16, but you have twice the money at risk. If you can sell one, you just traded a 16 (really bad) for a probable 18 (bad, but not as bad as 16) and since your neighbor "bought the second 8" you slipped out of the extra bet. You lowered your variance. And improved your EV.

    Of course, it isn't particularly smart for someone to buy one of those 8's... :) But then I see players do all sorts of stupid things. For example, at Binions two of us were playing a SD game and the other guy got a 11 against the dealer's 10. He had pondered the decision, and finally said "too much money, I'm not going to double." I said "hey, I'll pay the double for you if you want..." He said "great...". Good for me, stupid for him. Had he gotten an Ace (he got the 10 as the count was up) he would have had to sit on the 12 vs the dealer 10 since he agreed to take only one card, yet by taking the risk of having a lower winning percentage, I was the only one that benefitted. But I see that with some degree of frequency. Funny thing was he wanted to "high-five" me as though I caused him to win, even though I won the same amount on his hand. :)
  • You have 88 vs 10 and split....good thinking. The very next round you have
    88 vs 10 and split again...Also good thinking.

    Several rounds later you have 88 vs 10 again and get that third 8.
    Now, I ask, when you get that third 8 should you split again? Yes, of course,
    you should because there is no difference in what you have now and the
    above example.
  • Ray - Good, concise post, and 100% correct as usual.......G.
  • Yeah, everytime I sit down at a table there's always someone who hesitates on splitting 8's just because they "feel" they will loose. Moosehead's explaination on why you should is a good enough reason to split 8's. PhilTX statment of "trust the math" should even make you more confident in splitting 8's. If basic strategy recommnds you to always split 8's then there is a definitive reason why. Why would you follow all basic strategy rules except for splitting your 8's? Just because you "feel" you will loose? That defeats the purpose of learning how to play skillfully.

    So for one who won't split 8's, are you telling me you would surrender that hand depending on what the dealer is showing if you were playing at a game that offered the option to surrender?

    I just don't get why "some" people think splitting 8's doesn't make sense? I too like moosehead have pulled some great hands out buy splitting my 8's. I much rather try to improve my hand rather than hitting on a hard 16 (8,8). 8,8 is the same as 10,6. They are both hard hands/totals, and hands that you don't really want anyways, except for the 8,8 you always have the option to split them and have the potential to improve that hand and "erase" that 16. Also if you are counting and the count is favorable why wouldn't you split them? The name of the game is to try to lower the houses edge as much as possible and win in the long run. Why would you go against numbers that help you become an advantage player? Plus if your bank roll can hold your play anyways you shouldn't be worrying about winning or loosing 1 hand out of one session.
  • Money- For the great majority of players, money does a lot of their thinking
    and 88 vs 10 is just one example out of many........................
  • For the 88 vs. 10 example, I see a lot of progression players surrender it when the bets are large. And of course CC's do it with a big bet because its correct.
  • today i begin to surreder 8 8 vs 10

    but i lost four BIG bet in a spilt 6 6 vs 6
  • A note:

    You are going to lose _lots_ of big bets. At a TC of +3, you might have an edge of around 1%. But the cards are still random. And at times, they are going to fall in favor of you, and at other times in favor of the house.

    Counters are not invincible at all, we just live with a long-term but very small edge over the house. If you spend all your time worrying about losing big bets, first thing you know you won't be pushing them out when the count calls for them, and that 1% edge may disappear entirely.

    I've gotten into the mode of "playing with chips". I play enough at home on my dining room table, or using CVBJ, or in the casinos, so that I don't give any real thought to "that's a $40 you just pushed out." Rather, I think "that is 8 units" and nothing more, so that I don't get into the defensive mind-set of trying to "hedge my bets" for various voodoo reasons.

    The faster you play the easier this is since there is no real time to start thinking about dollars and cents, just "what is the right number of chips to bet here?"
  • Same here. I deal simulated games to myself at home using real cards. Then for review I'll always come on here and practice the hit or stand bonus round, then I'll also do some CVBJ.

    Also, my KO method says (and I never looked at this before becaue I can't ever find games that offer surrender) to surrender a hard 16 vs. 10; and a hard 16 (except split 8,8) vs. 9, and surrender a hard 16 vs. A. Anyone know why??

    So if surrender is not offered what do you do with 8,8 vs 9, 10, and A?Stand vs. 10 & A, and split only vs. the 9? OR Split all and improve the hand since you can't surrender?
  • For 88 vs. 9-10-A, one SPLITS if no surrender. If anyone can help with split/hit/stand indicies, that would be much appreciated.
  • Nickels- If no surrender, the only variation that I know of for 88 vs anything
    is stand on 88 vs 10 at +6 or greater. This is from a very good level 2 system.
    Otherwise, I suspect the always split recommendation should be followed.
  • i m playing no hole card game

    the correct stragery is to surrender 8 8 vs 10

    and also surrender 14 vs 10 include 7 7
  • To anyone who wants to answer,

    In terms of EV, how does the No-hole-card game that beyond14 plays, compare to our standard Las Vegas Strip 6-deck? (Surrender, DOA, RSA, DAS, S17)
  • adds -.11% to the house edge. It is a very small change overall. Main thing is to understand the changes to BS. Everything else stays the same, except for the cases of 10 and A showing. An A showing changes a lot, while a 10 showing is still dangerous for some plays.

    When they offer early surrender, it more than offsets the above disadvantage, and can actually make a shoe game a +EV game for BS given the right rules... for example, ES with a dealer A showing is a +.39 change to the EV in the player's favor. Not bad.
  • beyond14 said:

    but i lost four BIG bet in a spilt 6 6 vs 6


    Whats a big bet??
  • "Big bet" or "small bet" you can't worry about if you lost when you split 8's or 6's when those times you did were all correct moves. Even the best blackjack teams and players loose "big bets" when they make correct moves.

    Correctly splitting or doubling down with a "big bet" in relation to the count doesn't mean you have a sure win all the time. I have lost many times because I didn't get the cards that were "expected". Those cards either fell in another player(s) hand or the dealer caught them. The moves I made were correct and the count was accurate, I just wasn't the one that caught the cards I was "expecting" to catch. I have played many times in scenarios when the count was more than favorable and everyone was catching black jacks and 20's and then I would get a hard 12 or a hard 16 and the dealer would have a 10. My 12 I would hit and bust or my 16 I would stand if the count was high, and then the dealer draws say a 7 8 or 9 and the whole table won except for me. Unfortunately thats going to occur and you will experience it often.
  • I understand all you have said. :) I just want to know what you feel is a BIG bet?. To me $100 is big...to some $1000 is big.
  • the largest I bet is $770 US one bet , u can count the maximum I may win/loss is 8X 770 US , including 8 spilt plus double


    Moosehead said:
    Whats a big bet??
  • hi , stain ,early surrender is favourable for player , but in my case
    , the casino does not offer the surredner when they got A on table
    , so such early surrender is still good for us?


    stainless steel rat said:
    adds -.11% to the house edge. It is a very small change overall. Main thing is to understand the changes to BS. Everything else stays the same, except for the cases of 10 and A showing. An A showing changes a lot, while a 10 showing is still dangerous for some plays.

    When they offer early surrender, it more than offsets the above disadvantage, and can actually make a shoe game a +EV game for BS given the right rules... for example, ES with a dealer A showing is a +.39 change to the EV in the player's favor. Not bad.
  • Early surrender against 10 only is still a +.24% edge in our favor, added to the house edge for whatever the actual rules are. So it still offsets the ENHC rule and then some, making the game potentially very good depending on penetration, etc.
  • Without going into all the mind blurring numbers, 16 against a 10 loses more than twice as much money as 8 against a 10. "More than twice" is the key phrase here. Therefore, it's cheaper to play 8 against a 10 twice than to play 16 against a 10 once.
    Now, if you are dealt 8/8 against a 10, you've got a bad hand, but playing 8 twice is is the cheapest way out. If you split and catch a third 8, you hate what's happened to you, but again, re-splitting is cheaper than playing out that 16.
    The advice in my book about "pawning off" splits is good advice if you can do it. Nobody however, is going to want to buy one of your 8's against a 10. It's just too glaring of an underdog. But I have pawned off one of my 7's against a 2 or 3 to the player next to me. Since splitting there is a proper basic strategy play, it looks like a moneymaker to most players -- when it is in fact just another "damage control" split. Good visual candidates for this move are 2's, 3's, 6's and 7's against a 2 or 3. They all lose money, even when you split them.
    I also try to go halves on somebody else's 9/9 against a 7. It's not the optimal play for the holder of that hand, but 9 against a 7 is a favorite and does make money for anyone who has it. If somebody at your table has 9/9 vs. 7 and hesitates -- as most players will, just say, "I like that split; I'll go halves with you".
    For non-card counters, these "hand interaction" plays are their only means of improving their overall EV at the table. They should specialize in them!
  • Fred,
    Since a 9 against a dealer 7 is a favorite, why not SPLIT a pair of 9's vs. the 7 every time, then you will have two hands that are favorites? (Basic strategy calls for STANDING with pairs of 9's.)
    Would 18 vs. 7 be a lessor favorite? Or, were you just talking about taking advantage of the indecisive player next to you?
  • can i get more information about

    which spilt is favourable to us

    and which spilt is lower the lost ?


    2 2 and 3 3 vs 7 seems quite big chance to lost both or all
  • Go to www.wizardofodds.com

    Every statistic you could think of (and many more) can be found there.
  • Tribute:
    18 vs. 7 is a 70% shot to win. 9 vs. 7 is a 59% shot to win. So if you're the one with the 9/9 vs. 7, you make the most by standing. When another player has 9/9 vs. 7 though, if you can convince him to split and you take one of his 9's, you'll have a 59% chance to win a hand you never would've played.
  • Fred,
    I appreciate that explanation. So I simply pick up an opportunity, while decreasing the other player's odds.

    What a concept!

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