Hit or Stand Error...
  • I just played with the "Hit or Stand" game. The dealer dealt me a "4" and an "Ace". She had a "3" up. BS move is to draw with A-4 against a 3 so I drew and got a 3. Then, of course, I "stood". To my surprise I got an error message telling me that with a soft 18 you should stand only when the dealer shows a 2, 7 or 8. Well... I know that's the case with A-7 because you can - and should - double against dealer 3-6 and draw against 9, 10 and A. But with A-3-4 you cannot double against a 3. A bit of an error in the code there isn't there?

    Funny too is I got several blackjacks during one round of practice. Got every one of those right... lol.... It's fund BS practice anyhow, folks. Great site for fanatic BJ players like me who want to bust the casinos....
  • byinbyan said:
    ...The dealer dealt me a "4" and an "Ace". She had a "3" up. BS move is to draw with A-4 against a 3 so I drew and got a 3. Then, of course, I "stood". To my surprise I got an error message telling me that with a soft 18 you should stand only when the dealer shows a 2, 7 or 8. Well... I know that's the case with A-7 because you can - and should - double against dealer 3-6 and draw against 9, 10 and A. But with A-3-4 you cannot double against a 3. A bit of an error in the code there isn't there?


    No, no error. You had a soft 18 and yes, Basic Strategy says with a two-card soft 18 to double against a dealer upcard of a 3. Since you took a hit and couldn't double any longer, the next best thing is to hit it again. Dont stand.

    Put it another way... hitting a soft 18 against a 3 is SO advantageous to the player, that you'd like to do so with double the money at risk and allow yourself just one more card! So if you aren't allowed to double any longer, that's unfortunate, but you still need to continue with the proper play as much as you can and hit it.

    18 is a bad hand, since it loses more than it wins.

    http://renzey.casinocitytimes.com/articles/19693.html
  • Sorry, BlackJack Ed, but you're wrong. Please don't confuse the guy who posted the question.

    If you'll read the Renzey article in the link that you, yourself provided, he says:

    "What about that multi-card soft 18 (4/2/A/A)? You have more than two cards, so doubling down is out of the picture. But if the dealer has a 9, 10 or Ace up, you've still got to hit that for your own good."

    -and later in the same article,

    "To recap and digest all this ... Multi-card soft 18s should also be hit against 9 thru Ace.

    The question posed in the post was what to do when the dealer shows a "3" -- and the correct move is to stand.
  • Greetings PhilTx,

    Thanks for replying!

    1) In Renzey's article that I gave a link to, there is no mention at all that he is referring to a multi-deck situation. Now correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that's what we're talking about here. (I believe I read that the Hit Or Stand Game here uses several decks, correct?)

    I think I can say without hesitation, that in a 6 or 8 deck game, if Basic Strategy says to double on a soft 18 against a 3, it's irrelevant whether that soft 18 is a two card soft 18 (A-7) or a three card soft 18 (A-4-3). That one extra low card that now helps to make up the hand, that is now not available to be drawn in the deck, in an 8 deck game, simply canNOT make enough of a percentage of a difference to make standing now worthwhile. Not one card out of more than 400. No way.

    Of course, I might be inclined to agree with you that a multi-card 18 in a SINGLE deck game, especially one that consists of not three but FOUR cards, (as Renzey made reference to) STANDING may now indeed be the percentage play.



    2) Nowhere in Renzey's article does he say to stand on a multi-card soft 18.

    When he says, "...Multi-card soft 18s should also be hit against 9 thru Ace." the reader may think this IMPLIES that a player should NOT hit the hand against a dealer upcard of a 3, but I'm not convinced that is true. I'm more inclined to believe that his statment is trying to emphasize his previous thought... that just like a regular, normal, two-card soft 18, multi-card 18s should ALSO be hit against 9 thru Ace.

    He also says, "To recap and digest all this, 18 is no great hand in blackjack. If you can play it some other way, you usually should." That statement, of course, would support my claim, and again, he doesn't come right out and mention anything to the contrary in his article... he doesn't specifically say to stand with a three-card soft 18 against a 3.

    Of course, someone with a blackjack simulator should run this scenario a million or so times and post the results for us to see:

    What makes more money... against a dealer upcard
    of a 3, HITTING a three-card soft 18 or STANDING
    on a three-card soft 18? (Again, using 6 to 8
    decks.)


    Ed
  • The correct move with a soft 18 (3 or more cards) against a 3 is definitely to stand. With any number of decks.
  • The rule that gets to me is
    H Soft 18 vs. 9 and 10.
    You have 3 ways to improve the
    hand, 4 to stay the same, and
    6 ways to degrade the hand.
    The dealer has 5 cards that will
    win, and 8 that will put him at
    a disadvantage. Still, the BS
    says hit, and that's what I do,
    every time.
  • My book says H.
    Game says Sp.
  • BlackJack_Ed said:
    No, no error. You had a soft 18 and yes, Basic Strategy says with a two-card soft 18 to double against a dealer upcard of a 3. Since you took a hit and couldn't double any longer, the next best thing is to hit it again. Dont stand.

    Put it another way... hitting a soft 18 against a 3 is SO advantageous to the player, that you'd like to do so with double the money at risk and allow yourself just one more card! So if you aren't allowed to double any longer, that's unfortunate, but you still need to continue with the proper play as much as you can and hit it.


    For the third time, BlackJack Ed, you're wrong on this one. That logic is flawed, and you should stop posting it in every single thread! ;)

    There are several situations in which you double if you can but otherwise stand. Just because doubling is preferable doesn't automatically mean you should hit if you can't double.

    If you have A,7 and the dealer is showing 2-6, you should double, but if you can't double (i.e.: A,2,5 or A,3,4), you should stand.

    In addition, if you have A,8 and the dealer is showing 6, you should double, but if you can't double, you should stand.

    The reason your logic is flawed is because you're missing the concept of doubling. For instance, let's say your odds of winning a hand are 75% if you stand or 70% if you hit. Obviously, if you can only play one hand, you want to stand. But, if you have the option to double, even though it lowers your odds of winning, your odds are still closer to that 75% than they are to even, so you'll make more money by doubling (and getting twice as much money into those still-great odds) than by standing.

    --DanG
  • BlackJack_Ed said:
    Greetings PhilTx,

    Thanks for replying!

    1) In Renzey's article that I gave a link to, there is no mention at all that he is referring to a multi-deck situation. Now correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that's what we're talking about here. (I believe I read that the Hit Or Stand Game here uses several decks, correct?)

    I think I can say without hesitation, that in a 6 or 8 deck game, if Basic Strategy says to double on a soft 18 against a 3, it's irrelevant whether that soft 18 is a two card soft 18 (A-7) or a three card soft 18 (A-4-3). That one extra low card that now helps to make up the hand, that is now not available to be drawn in the deck, in an 8 deck game, simply canNOT make enough of a percentage of a difference to make standing now worthwhile. Not one card out of more than 400. No way.

    Of course, I might be inclined to agree with you that a multi-card 18 in a SINGLE deck game, especially one that consists of not three but FOUR cards, (as Renzey made reference to) STANDING may now indeed be the percentage play.



    2) Nowhere in Renzey's article does he say to stand on a multi-card soft 18.

    When he says, "...Multi-card soft 18s should also be hit against 9 thru Ace." the reader may think this IMPLIES that a player should NOT hit the hand against a dealer upcard of a 3, but I'm not convinced that is true. I'm more inclined to believe that his statment is trying to emphasize his previous thought... that just like a regular, normal, two-card soft 18, multi-card 18s should ALSO be hit against 9 thru Ace.

    He also says, "To recap and digest all this, 18 is no great hand in blackjack. If you can play it some other way, you usually should." That statement, of course, would support my claim, and again, he doesn't come right out and mention anything to the contrary in his article... he doesn't specifically say to stand with a three-card soft 18 against a 3.

    Of course, someone with a blackjack simulator should run this scenario a million or so times and post the results for us to see:

    What makes more money... against a dealer upcard
    of a 3, HITTING a three-card soft 18 or STANDING
    on a three-card soft 18? (Again, using 6 to 8
    decks.)


    Ed


    Ed, I think your wrong. The way he writes he never says when to stand in the entire article. He always implies to stand if it is under what he says to hit.
    Multi-card soft 18s should also be hit against 9 thru Ace.


    Why wouldn't he have typed ALWAYS hit multi-card 18s then? That would have emphasized his point and the point you seem to be trying to make.

    He doesn't because 18, no matter the make up of the hand is as your article states:
    Against a deuce through 6 up, 18 is a decided favorite to win, so again you're in good shape.
  • my understanding is that with a 3 or more card soft 18 you hit if the dealer is showing 9,10, or Ace-STAND on all else.
    Prog
  • BlackJack_Ed said:
    No, no error. You had a soft 18 and yes, Basic Strategy says with a two-card soft 18 to double against a dealer upcard of a 3. Since you took a hit and couldn't double any longer, the next best thing is to hit it again. Dont stand.

    Put it another way... hitting a soft 18 against a 3 is SO advantageous to the player, that you'd like to do so with double the money at risk and allow yourself just one more card! So if you aren't allowed to double any longer, that's unfortunate, but you still need to continue with the proper play as much as you can and hit it.

    18 is a bad hand, since it loses more than it wins.

    http://renzey.casinocitytimes.com/articles/19693.html


    I agree with the original post. I'll take my chances with an 18 against the dealers 3
  • DanG82 said:

    In addition, if you have A,8 and the dealer is showing 6, you should double, but if you can't double, you should stand.


    --DanG



    Are you sure? None of the basic strategy charts I've seen show double down on A8 vs. 3. Where did you learn this? Could you be referring to a single deck game?
  • Tribute said:
    Are you sure? None of the basic strategy charts I've seen show double down on A8 vs. 3. Where did you learn this? Could you be referring to a single deck game?


    Dude, you really need to read what I wrote before questioning it. You even quoted it yourself, and still got it wrong. ;) I said you double down on A,8 versus a 6, not a 3.
  • A,8 should only be doubled against a 6 in single deck games, as far as I know.
  • I'm new to some of this, but have been reading, studying, learning and practicing an awful lot. Most Multi-Deck BS Charts appear to say to double down (not hit) if allowed on the A/7 against a dealer 3, but also tell you to stand if you cannot double down. The reasoning here does not appear to be that you are in any way trying to improve your hand as much as it is trying to get more money on the table to take advantage of the dealer possibly busting. You are banking/betting that the dealer will bust with his 3. You make the double down and take the extra card even if it does not improve you hand. If you cannot double, and you cannot increase your bet... then you might as well stand on 18 and let the dealer bust! This closely resembles the strategy of keeping a lousy hand against any dealer possible bust. We should not forget....the end objective is not always to have the best hand, but to win the most money!
    To address the other issue of hitting a soft 18 against dealer 9,10 or ace.. in these instances, you ARE trying to improve your hand, but the dealer still appears to have the advantage with a higher up card showing.
    I recently posted a question on this same issue of soft hits. It is in the Message Board for Basic Strategy.
  • LeonShuffle said:
    A,8 should only be doubled against a 6 in single deck games, as far as I know.


    Nope. In a multi-deck game, A,8 should be doubled against a 6 when possible if the dealer hits on soft 17. If the dealer stands on soft 17, stand with A,8 against a 6.
  • Gotcha. I figured there might be another instance in which that was the case but I forgot about H17 since I only ever play in A.C.

    Come to think of it, I've played H17 on-line before and I did know that. Along with A,7 against a 2. I just forgot.
  • DanG82,
    I was not even thinking about H17 games because I never play them. Yes, it is correct to double down on A,8 vs. 6 in that game. When you or I state a rule, we must clarify the specific game conditions.
  • byinbyan said:
    I just played with the "Hit or Stand" game. The dealer dealt me a "4" and an "Ace". She had a "3" up. BS move is to draw with A-4 against a 3 so I drew and got a 3. Then, of course, I "stood". To my surprise I got an error message telling me that with a soft 18 you should stand only when the dealer shows a 2, 7 or 8. Well... I know that's the case with A-7 because you can - and should - double against dealer 3-6 and draw against 9, 10 and A. But with A-3-4 you cannot double against a 3. A bit of an error in the code there isn't there?

    Funny too is I got several blackjacks during one round of practice. Got every one of those right... lol.... It's fund BS practice anyhow, folks. Great site for fanatic BJ players like me who want to bust the casinos....


    It is a bug in the program that has been pointed out many many times...

    You were correct in standing on your 3 card 18.

    Chuckn

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