Is it cheating?
  • I pose this question to ALL of you?

    Is it cheating if the dealer pays you more than what you are entitled?

    My response is it cheating when the casino uses tricks to manipulate players to gamble more or gamble poorly. Especially the gimmicks used to lure patrons to play the pokies machines.

    For example, plying patrons with alcoholic drinks, no clocks or windows, cute dealers, hmmmmm you have my respsone would love to hear all of yours esp yours Mr Renzey!!!???
  • If you sell a car or an item at a yard sell for more than what you think it is
    worth, is that cheating? I think not. If the casino is smarter than you,
    who's fault is that? If the dealer makes a mistake in your favor, correct
    her/him. We call that class................
  • if a ploppy plops down,obviously intoxicated, says he wants to double down on his 19 vs the dealers 10 would they take the bet?
  • PAGANGUY said:
    if a ploppy plops down,obviously intoxicated, says he wants to double down on his 19 vs the dealers 10 would they take the bet?

    Yes..they will.
  • there you go!
  • PAGANGUY said:
    if a ploppy plops down,obviously intoxicated, says he wants to double down on his 19 vs the dealers 10 would they take the bet?

    They normally repeat the count of his hand wait a second and then throw down the bust card
  • so the point is that it's WAR-end of story! we'll (the players) show them (the casinos) no quarter!
    Paganguy
  • But neither the player or dealer wants to be percieved as being in collusion with the other by security, even if its just a mistake. Then its no longer WAR...
  • Ray said:
    If you sell a car or an item at a yard sell for more than what you think it is
    worth, is that cheating? I think not. If the casino is smarter than you,
    who's fault is that? If the dealer makes a mistake in your favor, correct
    her/him. We call that class................

    Call it class? What? The dealer might be calling it unemployment if they have a few blots on the personal record. Why embarress the dealer and slow down the game when the casino will do just about anything to get you to throw down your money.I agree with paganguy that when in a casino it is war. take no quarter as long as what you do is legal. When I think of all the things I have seen casinos do with drunk and/or stoned players over the years it really ticks me off. Its a war, never forgive never forget.
  • It's basically a big Tom and Jerry game in the world today. If you can make money off of stupid people then that is perfectly fine in society. There's no laws that say you can't sell crap to stupid people, and there is no laws that say stupid people can't buy crap offered by smart rich people. And theres no laws that say I can't take advantage of you if you are walking around with a sign on your back that says "sucker". Afterall in America when running a business you are not allowed to "discriminate". HAHAHA. So if you are retarded, slow, drunk, or uneducated you are still allowed to play crappy blackjack games.

    Last year I watched a drunk man loose all his money in a downtown casino. He was half asleep and hitting all his hands wrong. The dealer had to keep waking him up when it was his turn. They let him play till he said he didn't have anymore money left in his pocket.

    In my mind casinos are ruthless in a nice way.
  • I am somewhat of a contrarian on this subject. I believe that you know and agree to the rules when you sit down. You beat the dealer -- you get paid. She beats you or you bust -- she takes your money. I believe anything beyond that is cheating.

    Yes, it's true the casino uses many low life tactics to hustle you out of your money, but unless they actually go outside the rules to cheat you out of it, then they're not cheating. I know it's difficult to point out a payoff error made in your favor, but if you don't, you have kept money that doesn't belong to you and I call that cheating.

    If you don't subscribe to this belief, then there are any number of things you could justify to get money from the casinos outside the rules of the game. A great example is the game of 3 Card Poker. Basic strategy for it is extremely simple and puts you at about a 2% disadvantage. Some dealers however are sloppy about dealing themselves their hole cards and will inadvertantly flash them while taking them from the shuffler above the table. Knowing this, mathematicians have derived a strategy for how to play when you know one or more of the dealer's hole cards. I'm told that playing with this information gives the player the overall advantage. Armed with this knowledge, there are many 3 Card Poker players who canvas those tables in an effort to identify dealers who flash their hole cards -- and won't play the game unless they find one! It has been deemed in court to not be illegal, but is clearly going outside the rules to gain an advantage. Morally speaking, if this is not cheating, then what is it?

    In poker games where the players are honorable, they advise the player next to them when he is flashing his hole cards. If you don't play it that way, then it's only one short step to sitting low in your seat or leaning back so you can get a glimpse of the players' cards on your left and/or right. You know what they call players who do that? Skumbags! And nobody wants to play with them.

    Only the other day I saw somebody come to my blackjack table and buy in for three rows of four $50 bills each. Spreading them out for the camera to see, the dealer announced, "Changing $600". The floorman looked over from the podium and said, "600 -- go ahead". Only thing is, one of the 50's in the middle row was a 20! I saw it clear as day. I looked at the player and then at the dealer, then back at the player. Nobody flinched. The player received $600 in chips and play resumed. Assumng the player knew what was going on, he could run that scam over and over, stealing $30 everytime it worked and would probably never get in trouble when it doesn't.

    What would you think if you were the casino and had to protect yourself from all these "angleshooters"? And just because the house will "back off" card counters and ply born losers with incentives, I don't believe that makes it right for me to rationalize keeping faulty payoffs or even going beyond that to increase my winning chances. I want to go to my grave knowing that I played it by the rules. I did not agree to a no-holds-barred war between me and the casino. I agreed to come in, play by the rules and use my brain to the best of my ability. I draw the line there.
  • I have to say I respect and admire Mr Renzey for his opinion and honesty in this matter. But I do reserve my choice to disagree with him.

    In a 6 hour session at the tables last weekend, I was overpaid once, however was underpaid to my knowledge at least three times. I immediately drew the attention to the dealer when my money was taken away and thought that had I not bought this issue to their attention that I would have walked away a loser for the night. Was it an honest mistake by the casino? Probably.

    I do not condone stealing, but I think everything does even itself out, for the times you are overpaid compared to underpaid.

    In my opinion I think some of the tactics used by the casino is cheating.
  • I consider myself a pretty reasonable person, but I have no trouble taking advantage of casino mistakes. If you look at it like a sporting event, one team against another. They compete against each other waiting for a slip up or mistake so they can capitalize and win the game. In baseball, if a run scores because of a fielders' error, they don't give that run back. In football if a team scores a touchdown on a fumble or interception it still counts and there's no feelings of guilt. Casinos always want the edge and usually have it. As advantage players we need to pull every trick out of the bag just to make it close. I personally try to make dealers make mistakes. If I have a true count of 3 or higher, with a higher probability of receiving a blackjack, I'll put out oddball bets just to test them on blacjack payouts. Say for example I'll put out $177.00 as a bet. A blackjack pays $265.50 on that,and I'll have that memorized before I place that bet. A dealer won't, but will usually pay it correctly. But if they figure it wrong in my favor, I'll take it with out saying a word. --- I just scored on an a error. If they figure it wrong against me I correct them with out a fuss and keep betting in the same manner. I don't think its wrong to throw a couple of trick plays in the playbook. Especially when its David vs. Goliath.
  • Bojack -- Errors and fumbles in sports fall within the rules of the game. He makes the catch -- you're out. He misses it -- you're on base. Both teams understand and agree to that going in. It's all above board.

    But when you make a $177 bet with the intention of keeping a mistaken overpay and correcting an underpay, I believe you're hitting below the belt. Suppose your $177 wager was made up of one black, three greens and two whites. What if the dealer quickly and smoothly paid off your blackjack by exchanging your black for 14 greens, two reds and a fifty cent piece? Have you been paid too much or too little? The next time he could exchange your three greens for three blacks, six reds, five whites and a fifty center. In both cases you've been shorted $5. Lots of dealers can do this in many ways without ever missing a beat. But then blackjack would be reduced to a slimey matter of who can out con who.
  • I feel strongly about certain things and sometimes let myself get very expressive in stating them publicly. It's probably not a good thing to do, since as an author and bookseller I should maintain an ambivilant image to all. I do feel the game should be played within the spirit of the rules, and apologize if my viewpoint has been at all ungracious.
  • Mr. Renzey, there is absolutley no reason to apologize for your viewpoint, or more succinctly how you stated it. I respect it as well as your knowledge of the game. But just to summarize part of what you said--errors and fumbles fall within the rules of the game, and both teams understand and agree to it. That being the case, should you be open and honest to the dealer and the pit and tell them that when you sit at their table you will be counting and playing an advantage game? Now it may not be against the law to count cards, but it is no doubt against the casino rules. You very well know this when you sit down, but yet you still do it unbeknownst to the casino. In essence aren't you conning the casino? How honorable is it to play their game, in their house, but try like hell to keep everything you do a secret. If you were to be caught counting you're gone. In some cases banned for life, not to mention the underground stories of even worse case scenarios. The casinos have even hired and designed agencies just for eliminating these dishonest people who covertly try to cheat them out of their money. Rules are rules , written or unwritten. Just like morals aren't written, they're implied. Counting Mr. Renzey are your rules, not the casinos', so in turn are you being immoral for purposely breaking their rules? By your way of your thinking the answer has to be yes. Morals are a tough thing there is right and there is wrong. Not tough to say but pretty tough to live by. Is stealing from a thief wrong? Yes of course, but it seems I'll admit to it and you'll try to rationalize it. Like it or not Casinos do not have a Pollyanna innocence of fresh wholesome entertainment. It's all about money and gambling, which spawns greed. So whether I take a dishonest payout, or you blatantly break the rules, we are all guilty. I just will choose not to throw a stone from my glass house. By the way if a dealer ever paid me in such a way that I wasn't expecting, I would stop the action to count my money.
  • I am not responding to attempt to answer for Mr. Renzey. He is more qualified in his field than any of us.

    Here is my opinion:
    Card counting is no more than using my brains to achieve a potential positive outcome, and a small percentage, at that. I have never seen a casino publish rules stating that card counting is against their rules. The courts have never ruled it illegal. Also, it is not the player's responsibility to state his or her skill level. The casino employees can judge my play to determine if they want my business as a customer. The casino also has a right to refuse service. Both parties understand. I believe the laws should dictate what is right and what is wrong. And I, for one, will strive to abide by the law.
  • Tribute--- I understand and respect your right to your opinion. I really do agree with it. But what I'm doing is playing devils advocate here. What we believe to be acceptable play is not the same view as the casino. We all know this. To say the casinos do not post or publish anything stating that card counting is against their rules is a real twist on reality. The fact that you have to try to hide your play should right off the bat tell you its wrong. When they're escorting you out of the casino do to the fact you were caught counting, you might even bring a smile to their face when you explain to them their rules and policies, only a counter really knows them. Because only a counter will try to rationalize he did nothing wrong. So than why the secret? It is a boldfaced lie to say both parties understand. The fact that you can pull the wool over a dealer or pit boss's eyes doesn't mean your not wrong. Being a good liar doesn't make it true. A counter in the eyes of the casino is a cheater, regardless of what your interpretation of cheating is, and its their house so they're right and your wrong. So its real simple. When the casinos come to our homes to play, they can play by our rules. Until that time we play by theirs, where there is no opinion, it is fact the casino has no place for counting, they don't want it and you're a cheater if you do it, And you have to be a liar to pull it off. So before anyone judges another be prepared to be judged, and just hope its by your peers and not the casinos, because if it is you'll get a crash course in reality.
  • Bojack1,
    I am not a card counter, but I have read many books and articles on advantage play. I have also exchanged ideas many months on this forum as well as others. I also understand how casinos view card counters. I even read one poster who told a story about a pit boss allowing him to continue counting as long as he kept his spread within 1 to 4 (and another restriction I fail to remember). Regarding your previous post, the only part I don't comprehend is your concept of liars. When I sit down at a blackjack table and use some sort of advantage play, or even perfect basic strategy, THAT does not make me a liar. (If I present a fake ID, yes!) It would also be DISHONEST for me to accept pay for a hand I actually lost or pushed. I also would not feel right about masking my appearance. It seems reasonable that I should strive to become a better player if I want to achieve better results. Just because I don't ANNOUNCE my intentions and methods does not make me a liar!
  • in the end it's all about getting the BENJAMINS by whatever means!
  • Tribute- You're right, playing perfect strategy does not make you a liar. Keeping mum when you purposely and premeditatedly cross the lines of fair play according to the casino makes you untruthful. Being untruthful is being a liar. There should be no need to split hairs here. Bottom line is if they don't want you to do it, and you do it anyway you're wrong. When it comes right down to it if you could do it openly and freely, than its okay,if you need to hide it or disguise it than any adult should know its wrong. I truly believe that its not wrong to count cards, but it doesn't matter what I think I don't own the casino. So instead we quietly play our deceitful games pretending to play fairly with the casino. It's dishonest to play that way, as much as its dishonest to take an unfair payout. So I guess I'm dishonest, but there isn't an advantage player who is not. You can argue to what degree each person is guilty, but a thief is a thief is a thief. So enjoy the game the best way you know how. I do not choose to judge anyone nor do I take anyone's opinion to heart, I play this game not as a hobby but as a source of income. So I see the good and bad in it all the time. And its all good at the end.
  • In Quick Guide To Winning Blackjack Avery Cardoza states:
    "" There are 3 reasons we go to the casino to play blackjack:

    1. To win money
    2. To win money
    3. To win money
    It's important that we memorize the 3 reasons why we go to the casino to play blackjack.
    Sincerely,

    Paganguy

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