Bet spread & ramp vs TC
  • I have a good game at a local Indian casino.
    6D, DAS, DOA, RSA=4, RSP=4, S17, Late Surrender. Pen about 75 to 85%
    I thing the casino adv is only .29%??

    What would be the spread and bet ramp on this 6 deck game, assume
    $3,000 BR, top bet $50, a 1 to 10 spread. So $5 first bet, $50 when the count is hi.
    What should the high TC be for the $50 bet and what should the ramp be from 5 to 50??
    I'm just leaning to count.
  • Sage :o)

    First, lets not spread 1-10 on a $5 game. For the method employed, most will do quite well spreading 1-4, and for your situation, 1-6 (the # of decks) is usually a good max bet. For example, you might be better off spreading 1-4 as 10-20-30-40 (60 optional max) at TC of -2 to +1,+2,+3,+4,(optional +5). Don't play at -3. If you feel better about $5 base, just divide bets by 2. Considering the good rules and the low limit, best not to use a green chip at all.

    IMHO just spread 1-6 using red chips only with a $5 base. If the house is ok with that, try 10 base with 1-4 spread in the future. Again all red chips.

    Also of note is that for this set of rules even Ace-5 can put a player at a 1/4% advantage using the alternate method and a spread of 1-4.
    Good Cards
  • Sage - Listen to Nickels. He's been around the block a time or two, and that is all very good advice he is giving. You've got a great game there, and a 1-6 spread will work just fine.

    Good Luck.......Grifter
  • Thanks for the info, I'll modify my bet spread.:)
    I have been reading various books indicating a 1-10 or 1-12 spread on the 6 deck game. I like the lower spread.!!!
    I spread 1 to 10 a week a go and lost twice my $$ buy in. I was ahead about $50 at the flat $5 bet range with the low counts over two shoes. Then the count went high TC to 5 to 6, and I bet 8 to 10 chips ($40 to $50) each hand and lost 5 hands in a row at the high count. I lost the entire buy in. Then it happened a second time within about 40 minutes. Again, ahead a few $$ at the flat bet range but lost the second $200 buy in just a few hands at the high count. At that point I left.
    I have been buying in for $200, getting half red & half green (40 times the 5 bet) :(
  • sage01 said:
    Thanks for the info, I'll modify my bet spread.:)
    I have been reading various books indicating a 1-10 or 1-12 spread on the 6 deck game. I like the lower spread.!!!
    I spread 1 to 10 a week a go and lost twice my $$ buy in. I was ahead about $50 at the flat $5 bet range with the low counts over two shoes. Then the count went high TC to 5 to 6, and I bet 8 to 10 chips ($40 to $50) each hand and lost 5 hands in a row at the high count. I lost the entire buy in. Then it happened a second time within about 40 minutes. Again, ahead a few $$ at the flat bet range but lost the second $200 buy in just a few hands at the high count. At that point I left.
    I have been buying in for $200, getting half red & half green (40 times the 5 bet) :(


    I actually believe in the long run there is more money to be made with larger spreads....but if you get backed off you won't be making any money.

    The problem with the larger bet spread is heat.

    I was backed off while playing a 1-10 spread, 6 deck game here in CT.

    Now I can only play the table minimum.

    Chuckn
  • Sorry you learned about the heat these days the hard way chuckn. Mohegan, no doubt. Its been getting warm there in the last year. Some days only 1-3 for me not wanting to put a C note in the circle.

    High-Limit area not much relief, but 50-200 there looks OK... its the guy (or gal) that drops 500 in the circle. That gets people's attention. Weekends and nights are better, but the penetration is worse, and the idiots come out to play (sorry, but at 50 minimum at least know Basic).


    Though not backed-off (yet), I've been seating myself at the $15 tables more and more, but doing OK 15-30-50. Spanish 21 is availible with dealer STANDS soft 17, which is a good alternative to the traditional game. (KNOW THE CHANGES !)
  • Thought to answer this point separately...

    I'm hearing a lot of folks here and in other places (other forums, live action, internet) talking about 1-10 and higher spreads to make keeping score useful.

    Consider the player that spreads 10-100... do you think such player loses much by wagering 25-100 instead?

    Can a player bet 1-4 and sit-out at -3 and still have an enjoyable advantage?

    Most of what I read or hear-say directly, indicates its not as good, but as chuckn, Grifter, and others state, "What good is the better advantage, if you're invited to leave?"

    Ultimately, in the player's long-run a key to success is NOT the winning rate, but the longevity of playability.

    25 years ago maybe 10 max units got little-noticed... especially at 5 or 10 base... now its VERY different. Those Palaces have big bills to pay, and every bet and bettor, counts. Such is the reason for 6:5 BJ, and no DAS in H17 games... UNTHINKABLE in the 80's.
  • Hi N&B
    Interested in your comments about when to increase the bet vs TC.
    I understand "don't play at TC = -3, just "Walk"
    Do you bet 10 at TC -2 to +1? and then up the bet at TC=2?
    I have been increasing the bet at TC = 2 and adding chips as the count goes to TC = 6. If I use your 10-20-30-40 (optional60) ramp do you bet the 20 at TC = 2? Then is it 30 at TC 3, and 40 at TC 4 and 60 at TC 6?
  • Yes sage that about right. Get up and leave at -3.

    I would recommend that you stick to a $5 base first, to see if the House doesn't mind the spread.

    -2 to +1 bet 5
    +2 bet 10
    +3 bet 15
    +4 bet 20
    (optional +6 bet 30)

    If using a $10 base, same as above but double the dollars and DON'T bet the optional +6 wager. Make $40 the top bet.

    One other important rule, now that I have your attention...

    Don't jump bet from say 1 to 4, or 1 to 3... at most parlay from 1 to 2 THEN 2 to 4, and make these moves when you win... parlaying a win looks natural, parlaying a tie or loss does not.

    So, if the score goes to +3, and you're currently betting 1, don't increase until you win... and then only go to 2. If the score is still at least +3, you can increase when you win again.

    This is called by some folks the "Missouri Cover", as the house needs to "show me a winner" before one ups the bet.

    Feel free for more questions.
  • Why would you want to bet in the negative counts unless you absolutely had to? A back-counting approach should be preferred, should it not? Furthermore, wonging in at good true counts should allow for a smaller spread but at a higher unit size. Information on this can be found in the chapter for SCORE in Blackjack Attack, chapter 11 of the 2nd edition, pp. 282-283 (soft cover), or chapter 9 in the 3rd edition, pp. 161-162 (hard cover).
  • Nickels_n_Bullets said:
    Yes sage that about right. Get up and leave at -3.

    I would recommend that you stick to a $5 base first, to see if the House doesn't mind the spread.

    -2 to +1 bet 5
    +2 bet 10
    +3 bet 15
    +4 bet 20
    (optional +6 bet 30)

    If using a $10 base, same as above but double the dollars and DON'T bet the optional +6 wager. Make $40 the top bet.

    One other important rule, now that I have your attention...

    Don't jump bet from say 1 to 4, or 1 to 3... at most parlay from 1 to 2 THEN 2 to 4, and make these moves when you win... parlaying a win looks natural, parlaying a tie or loss does not.

    So, if the score goes to +3, and you're currently betting 1, don't increase until you win... and then only go to 2. If the score is still at least +3, you can increase when you win again.

    This is called by some folks the "Missouri Cover", as the house needs to "show me a winner" before one ups the bet.

    Feel free for more questions.




    While this is all great advice by a experienced player.... It's my opinion you should spread your bets as much as you think you can get away with. (not going more than 1-10 of course) There are a lot of other factors i would be looking at. Is everyone else at the table playing minimum bets? Are the pit bosses paying attention to your betting? How busy is the casino? Does the dealer seem knowledgeable? I also like the idea of "hit and run" Set yourself some stop limits and quit if you are up or down X dollars, but continue to play once you reach the stop limit UNTIL the shoe is over or turns negative. That way you wont be hurting your EV. Also dont visit the same casino more than once a week. Now these are jsut my suggestions.. I have only been counting for about 150+ hours at about 5 diff. Casinos over the last couple months. I spread my bets 1-8 greens on good 2 deck games. No heat has come down on me yet. I usually will start the shoe with 2units. And i wont ramp my bet more than 1-4after the shoe turns extremely positive . Ive won and lost a lot at most the casinos. If i really start winning a lot things may change... Time will tell
  • And the 1st time you walk in to a casino, never playing there before, what would be your spread?

    What do you think you could get away with and not be barred (can't play anywhere), or maybe backed-off (photograph for face-recognition and told to stick to the CSM game or you're bounced)?

    10-100? 25-300? 5-60? 5-30? 10-50?

    I've witnessed back-offs at each of these spreads... and while the 5-30 might sound extreme, Vegas is known for it in certain venues.

    You're doing OK so far, with the greens, and I won't presume you can't spread 1-8 and not be effective. However my experience with green chips at a DD game is that you're being watched, even if it doesn't look like it.

    good cards
  • double4more said:
    Why would you want to bet in the negative counts unless you absolutely had to? A back-counting approach should be preferred, should it not? Furthermore, wonging in at good true counts should allow for a smaller spread but at a higher unit size. Information on this can be found in the chapter for SCORE in Blackjack Attack, chapter 11 of the 2nd edition, pp. 282-283 (soft cover), or chapter 9 in the 3rd edition, pp. 161-162 (hard cover).


    Primarily for two reasons:

    1) 10-60 is not a professional spread, but still I reccomend 10-40 just in case the house is warm.

    2) Back-counting... you mean hanging around a table and then jumping in when the score is appropriate. Better to play the best 2/3 rds of the score-card by sitting down when you feel like it. A 1/2% is better than a tap on the shoulder.

    No I'm not paranoid about the house, rather the reverse is true. That drives them to disallow players from winning.
  • Hi N&B, since your post I have played more conservatively, ramping up slowly, using "Missouri Cover". Interesting results, granted with just three times at the casino. It seems the higher bets of 3 & 4 units are less common and have not covered the slow loss of the flat betting. (I think)I'm not getting any "heat" But also I'm not getting the wins, comment???
    What do you think of playing 2 units when ever the count is + (between 0 and 1) Which is a lot of the times? That would increase the amount of money on the table over the longer run.?? Might it also increase the loss??
  • Sage:

    Generally speaking, a ZERO count is of a house advantage, and +1 is break-even. It doesn't make much financial sense to increase if less than +1. However some folks DO put 15 up if the TC falls between 1 and 2. Again theres not much gain here, just an increase in financial variance (your ave. bet increases, without much to show for it).

    Stick with it... no heat, and you have a good 1/2%+.

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