How to avoid P.B. heat while card counting successfully!!!
  • You don't start to get heat put on too you until you are winning no matter how much you are betting. One simple solution is too pocket some of your winnings so the house does not think that you are winning as much as you are. If you have a lot of chips you can also cash in the checks at the casino next store because a lot of casinos will take foreign checks from nearby casinos!!! In addition to not getting heat from the pit boss and the casino if you have a players card you can earn comps faster!!! Most casinos while base card counting on the result and not on if you are doing it correctly. The one time I get kicked out of the casino for card counting I was constantly playing with my chips. I had made $80 at a $1 minimum table my bets would swing from $1 to $20 and I was getting lucky to lose a lot of small bets and getting lucky to pick up a lot of big bets. I'm confidente had i pocket the money i wouldn't of been asked not to play blackjack!!!
  • Once, just 4 the hell of it,
    when the Dealer's first two Cards were a 6 and a 4,
    I pushed out two $5.00 Chips to the Dealer, and said,
    "I'd like to Double-Down on your 10"...LOL
  • learningtocount said:
    You don't start to get heat put on too you until you are winning no matter how much you are betting. One simple solution is too pocket some of your winnings so the house does not think that you are winning as much as you are. If you have a lot of chips you can also cash in the checks at the casino next store because a lot of casinos will take foreign checks from nearby casinos!!! In addition to not getting heat from the pit boss and the casino if you have a players card you can earn comps faster!!! Most casinos while base card counting on the result and not on if you are doing it correctly. The one time I get kicked out of the casino for card counting I was constantly playing with my chips. I had made $80 at a $1 minimum table my bets would swing from $1 to $20 and I was getting lucky to lose a lot of small bets and getting lucky to pick up a lot of big bets. I'm confidente had i pocket the money i wouldn't of been asked not to play blackjack!!!



    Counters do get tossed while winning and so do lucky players at many sweat joints, but ask enough experienced counters and they will tell you that getting the tap while losing is something that happens quite often but only happens in casinos that actually know what they are doing. I kind of think some of the casino personel get a kick out of backing a counter off while he is losing big, letting him know that he will not make a comeback in their house. My second backoff came while losing.

    ihate17
  • ihate17 said:
    Counters do get tossed while winning and so do lucky players at many sweat joints, but ask enough experienced counters and they will tell you that getting the tap while losing is something that happens quite often but only happens in casinos that actually know what they are doing. I kind of think some of the casino personel get a kick out of backing a counter off while he is losing big, letting him know that he will not make a comeback in their house. My second backoff came while losing.

    ihate17



    Last night i got backed off. I was down about 4k making a comeback. when i got notified to leave. Fortunately I was up 1k when i cashed out due to a very good shoe right before they came. Overall i took them for about 7k over the last couple months.
  • In the casino that I work in there is a mindplay system that reads all the cards at the end of the bet and reads how much the player is betting. This computor can determine if you are an advantage player or not weather or not you are winning or losing.
  • learningtocount said:
    In the casino that I work in there is a mindplay system that reads all the cards at the end of the bet and reads how much the player is betting. This computor can determine if you are an advantage player or not weather or not you are winning or losing.



    Mindplay: A machine specifically designed to reduce pit and surviellance personal, reduce comps, catch counters and cheats and also has the ability to cheat every player on the table unless they obey the recent edict of the Nevada Gaming Board, creating an 8 hand delay on the real count being transmitted to the pit. What you as a dealer probably do not know and what is not suppossed to be transmitted to the pit is that it also knows the exact order of the cards not yet dealt!!!!!!!!

    Do you deal at the El Dorado in Reno? If so, you should know that several excellent card counters have heavily fed on Mindplay, while amatuer counters are easily caught. Same happened at both Hilton and Flamingo in Vegas but those machines have been removed. They were not removed because of the counters winning but because in Vegas, the players voted against it and went instead to other casinos. Also, it is rumored that pit types, not liking the thing would find ways for breakdowns to happen.
    If you do deal at El Dorado, you should be aware that they are the casino that used to cheat every player on the table (except counters because they understood what was happening) by shuffling early when the remaining cards favored the players and dealing on when those cards favored the house. A law suit brought by a California attorney against El Dorado and Bally Gaming was dropped when the gaming board brought in the 8 hand delay.

    If you work at a Casino in basically an isolated area, where addicted gamblers have no choice but your game, then Mindplay will work for you, but where given a choice players do not like things on the table that they do not understand and blame everything that goes wrong on these things.

    If you check the patent application of Bally Gaming for Mindplay21, you will see listed as the benifits to the casino, in order of importance:
    1. Reduction of personel, pit and surviellance: Less salaries, sick days, benifits and retirement.
    My experience: A casino dependent upon something like Mindplay will land up with a weak pit and eye, who feel the machine will do their job for them.

    2. Reduction of comps: It is well known to casino management that comps for table games have been based upon an estimate made by the pit. If the pit likes someone, they could easily have boosted their amount of comps. The use of Mindplay gives players the exact amount of comps that they deserve, so there are no comps for that bathroom break, fewer comps when the table is full and absolutely no favors given.

    3. It will catch cheaters and advantage players: It prevents the holding out of a card on a pitch game, it prevents bet capping and probably prevents any kind of cheating where cards or chips are involved.
    It will also catch a card counter who is inexperienced and just counts but is useless against teams and experienced counters with an understanding of the gizmo have been very successful in beating it. Basically, it catches the counters who are losing counters anyway.

    The reading of the cards is done after the shuffle, when it is placed temporarily in the recessed area where there is a reader that reads the code on the edges of the cards, so the order and reading is actually done before you deal, unless there is a new version I have not seen yet.

    Basically, Mindplay has been a winner for the salesman of Mindplay, a winner in a few isolated spots and may be a winner at Mohegan Sun because there is no casino next door. Mindplay has been a loser in Vegas and today there are no Mindplay machines in Vegas and no one has announced that they want to try it out. It is one of those things that companies like Bally Gaming and Shufflemaster love to come out with. It prays upon the two most important factors in selling something to a casino, Greed and Paranoia, and as long as it does this it will sell, even if it does not really deliever.

    I have played at the El Dorado at least 6 times and was never spotted as an advantage player.
    I had played at the Hilton, while they had Mindplay, 15 times, won in 9 of those sesssions and the total of wins and loses put me up in mid 5 figures, and never got a tap on the shoulder.
    I never played Mindplay at Flamingo.

    Mindplay is no big deal, it is actually a bad joke on casinos and their staff but perhaps a new and improved system is on the drawing board (Shufflemaster has one they are working on now) and it will be a threat.

    ihate17
  • I did not no all that!!! I don't deal at the eldorado but I play there. I really like the no limit poker game they have there. They have a rake lower than online poker at that game believe it or not!!! They have 6/5 blackjack at the eldorado that a lot of people play. I can't understand it the or full play blackjack with modfied rules like you can only double down on 10 or 11. That said I like the enviroment in the eldorado. I wouldn't mind working there because there dealers make bank there. They make so much in tips they probably owe money every paycheck.
  • I wouldn't mind working there because there dealers make bank there. They make so much in tips they probably owe money every paycheck.[/QUOTE]
    ????????????????????!!!!!!!!!
  • I completely agree with absolutely everything NYB said about what Learning To Count said???????????????????????????????

    ihate17
  • Dealers don't shuffle because cards either favor the player or the house they shuffle for one of two reasons there running out of cards or they have a new player coming in. The told me that I have to reshuffle before letting a new player in. Never once has the pit boss come over to me and told me to shuffle because the count was too high or too low. My screen doesn't tell me the count just if I have a blackjack and what spots have bets out.
  • I have a question for you learningtocount. What would you personally do if you were dealing and you suspected one of the players at your table was counting?
  • I don't deal with card counters because technically they are not cheating. The pit boss is the one to deal with card counters not the dealers. The dealers want to see the players win because tippically winners tip better. It is our job as dealers to run a fair game. Where people arent pinching or pressing there bets, or switching cards out that type of stuff. But a person vering there bet is not something that I kick out players for doing. The pit boss can if he or she feels a person is counting kick a player out or ask them not to play blackjack.
  • Thank you for that answer, thats the one I was looking for. Most counters will not be bothered if you are playing low stakes. If you notice the pit bosses they barely take notice of the $5 thru $15 minimum player. Heck even trying to get their notice for the comps can be downright difficult. They usually cater to the players putting out bigger money. At the lower limit tables your dealer is the only real connection you have to the casino. Sure the pit bosses get called for cash ins and color out, but so many times they really come over for just procedure reasons, not really paying attention to the actual action. And very few dealers even know how to play advantage blackjack, let alone spot it. Honestly very few dealers know how to even play basic strategy, so there is no real threat from them. And as learningtocount said the dealers are typically on the players side in hopes of better tips. So if you're counting at one of these lower limit tables I wouldn't worry about spreads or cover play too much, or catching any heat. Its when you move your play up to the green tables and higher where you should start concerning yourself with cover. Although I would like to add, if you are at a red table betting heavy green or black, then you will draw attention to yourself. The best bet is to play the color that the table calls for, its easier to blend in that way, and you can stash chips to hide the amount you really have. If you're the only one playing black at a red table, they know exactly how much you have, and how much you've won.
  • learningtocount said:
    Dealers don't shuffle because cards either favor the player or the house they shuffle for one of two reasons there running out of cards or they have a new player coming in. The told me that I have to reshuffle before letting a new player in. Never once has the pit boss come over to me and told me to shuffle because the count was too high or too low. My screen doesn't tell me the count just if I have a blackjack and what spots have bets out.



    If you were dealing at El Dorado a year ago, you would have been preferential shuffling. There have been no reports of them doing this since the gaming board decision but I find it amazing that the board did not put a heafty fine on them because it is cheating. They basically changed the odds of the game by only dealing when the cards favored the house. The nature of blackjack is the game has a house edge, say .40% but as the cards are dealt out, the advantage either increases or decreases depending on what has been removed from play. So sometimes the house has a 2% advantage and sometime the player might but in the long term the house has a .4% advantage. Now if you only deal when the house has the edge, you deal when the house has a big edge and when they have a small edge but rarely when they do not have an edge. Result, the house edge is much greater.

    Anyway, this information is now supposed to be and seems to be disabled, but since Hilton and Flamingo chose to be honest (they also used Mindplay on a game with a cut card, so perhaps that played into their honestly,) should not El Dorado have been punished.

    Finally, I find it kind of strange that your casino requires you to shuffle when a new player enters, the usual is he is allowed in with no change or he must wait till the next shuffle. What is to stop your casino from sending a shill to the table when the count is high, make you shuffle and leave after a single hand??????????

    ihate17
  • That is an EXCELLENT point. And try proving the 'shill' is in fact one. Skullduggery is afoot.
  • Bojack1 said:
    Thank you for that answer, thats the one I was looking for. Most counters will not be bothered if you are playing low stakes. If you notice the pit bosses they barely take notice of the $5 thru $15 minimum player. Heck even trying to get their notice for the comps can be downright difficult. They usually cater to the players putting out bigger money. At the lower limit tables your dealer is the only real connection you have to the casino. Sure the pit bosses get called for cash ins and color out, but so many times they really come over for just procedure reasons, not really paying attention to the actual action. And very few dealers even know how to play advantage blackjack, let alone spot it. Honestly very few dealers know how to even play basic strategy, so there is no real threat from them. And as learningtocount said the dealers are typically on the players side in hopes of better tips. So if you're counting at one of these lower limit tables I wouldn't worry about spreads or cover play too much, or catching any heat. Its when you move your play up to the green tables and higher where you should start concerning yourself with cover. Although I would like to add, if you are at a red table betting heavy green or black, then you will draw attention to yourself. The best bet is to play the color that the table calls for, its easier to blend in that way, and you can stash chips to hide the amount you really have. If you're the only one playing black at a red table, they know exactly how much you have, and how much you've won.

    Be careful about the never back off red chip players. About 3 months ago I was backed off at a casino in Reno playing heads up or with 1 other player going from $5 to $30. It was a weekday afternoon shift. So it can happen.
  • If they make learningtocount shuffle when a new player wants to enter, this will effectively eliminate backcounting (low limit). I've never seen that procedure. Could it be that he is dealing at a green or black table that has the mid-deck/shoe sign in place and it is standard procedure to wait for the shuffle prior to entry?
  • nc-tom, Your case is exactly why I did not say it never can happen. I did stress it is unlikely, but as you well know, nothing is a gaurantee in this game. I will still stand by my statement that most red chip play does not get the close scrutiny that larger play does. I try to say this without offending anyone, and I apologize if I do, but most counters will not play at a level of success that would concern the casinos anyway. There is such a feeling of paranoia among counters about getting caught playing an advantage game, but that comes more from stories that have been blown out of proportion or just plain old myth. I'm not saying play like a fool, I'm saying don't be fooled into thinking that all eyes are on you and one slip up with your cover and you're going to get that tap. Don't get me wrong the eye in the sky is on you, but without direction from the floor, they're just creating a history of whats going on. They can go back and check your play later if they're suspicious, but than again remember there are thousands of people playing in the casino everyday, to get your play checked you most likely have had to had one or all of these things happen, been extremely successful at the table, while betting the larger of your bets, having your large bets actually amount to something, and have a history of this with consistent winning. With that being said its even more rare for the red chipper to get backed off due to previous play, not impossible, just rare. Listen I am by no means all knowing on this subject, ihate17 seems to have some incredible knowledge about the casinos ability to observe and control these situations. All I'm trying to say is play a good smart advantage game. If more players worried how to play correctly instead of how to hide their play, than they might actually get a reason to hide it.
  • You make a good point. Most red chippers should worry more about playing their game right than about getting the tap. Just never underestimate the level of parinoia in a casino.
  • Where the make me shuffle before a new player enters is on the single deck game not on the shoe game on the shoe game players can enter as they please with no shuffle.
  • learningtocount said:
    Where the make me shuffle before a new player enters is on the single deck game not on the shoe game on the shoe game players can enter as they please with no shuffle.


    Not quite clear. I understand it is on the single deck but does the player have to wait until the proper time to shuffle or when he sits down do you just shuffle again even if you just dealt the first round?

    The usual procedure is for the player to wait till the shuffle and not force the shuffle. If he can force the shuffle it is a horrible procedure for the house. Simply if too many aces and faces came out on the first deal, I have my friend sit down and make you shuffle away a negative deck, let me know where you deal.

    ihate17
  • A lot of the times players will want to play right after I have dealt a blackjack because they feel that I'm a lucky dealer. I will finish up the hand than I will shuffle regardless of what comes out. There could be 3 blackjacks that pop out on a single deal or there could be two 2 pairs of 5's either way I will shuffle up the cards and welcome the new player to the game. Thats the way that I like to do it because i like to welcome new players to the table and not make them wait or feel excluded from the game. Not all the dealers will do that though. By the way in most places you are aloud to ask for a shuffle anytime that you want!!! By the way I work at the Crystal Bay Club on the North shore, it is near the
    Cal-Neva, Biltmore and John kelly's Nugget which has an Izzy's.

    I won't shuffle a shoe though they can just come in and play. The only time I will shuffle a shoe are when I reach the red card of course I will finish the round or when the game is dead and there are cards left there even if I haveonly gone through a deck or so.
  • I was wondering if that answered your question on proceedure? Are you going to come to the crystal bay club and play?
  • learningtocount said:
    I was wondering if that answered your question on proceedure? Are you going to come to the crystal bay club and play?


    When you said you had Mindplay21 and were not at the El Dorado, I did not think about Chrystal Bay but shuld have.

    If I do show up, you will not know it. But if they still have a $200 max bet there, I might just walk around, take a look, perhaps play a half hour and leave on my next trip through Northern Nevada. The bet level in the place is just too low for me.

    ihate17
  • How much do you buy in for that $200 hand is just to low. Most people in there don't bet close to $200 a hand. But if you want to come in there playing $200 a hand we would love to have your business. Yes we still have a $200 hand limit with a $5 minimum. You probably don't have enough to play $200 for most hands. You could empty my tray quickly if you where playing $200 a hand because I only have between $6,000 and $10,000 in the tray at any time!!!
  • Never said I bet $200 per hand, but I do bet over $200 often. Your board name is Learningtocount, so do not forget there is a spread involved. You only win with flat betting if you have additional information.
    Playing where I would stick out is also a bad idea. Most times in a low rolling place I would be with someone who has a smaller bankroll and just watch them play.
    ihate17
  • There are pit boss that are superstitious that will make you do weird shuffles if the house is losing. This will in no way affect the out come of the cards in the long haul. Pit boss are very visual people they can see what a stack looks like and tell if it has 20 chips or not!!! When there was a player that won over $2,000 that harldy veried there bet at all the pit boss where genuially upset even though she tipped the dealers more than $200!!! I think that they would of been far less upset had she cashed the money out and they could not see all the chips in front of her. She got a lot of attention from the pitboss but because she was not very her bet she was probably just on a fluke winning streak!!! I think that we should exploit that winning streak for advertising purposes!!!
  • Loosing a couple of thousand dollars to a player should not be a big deal to a casino. If they had a tenth of a brain, they knew she was not counting.
    So if they were suspicious they needed to find out if she was hole carding? Or if ($200 tip is way way way too big for a $2,000 win) she was playing with the help? If she was playing with the help, she will be back with the same dealer.
    Winning a couple grand is just luck. You deal; how many times have you seen a guy who was a terrible blackjack player get on a run? Anyone can win for a short period of time. With your pit and your Mindplay device, you folks should have figured out that she was lucky, comped her nicely and enticed her to play more. The problem with the sweat shop mentality is that if you do get a player willing to bet big, once they go on a run, a sweat shop will run scared but a smart casino will comp that player well and entice them to play more and eventually get all their money plus the players money.

    ihate17
  • When you sit downto a blackjack game why don't you buy two colors of chips for the small player red and green $5 and $25 chips sit back bet the red until the count runs favorable than bet the green!!! I think that this style of betting attracks a lot less attenion than betting 5 red chips because it is a lot less visual appealing because when you win you are only winning one chip even though it is 5 times the amount!!! This with stuffing your pockets with chips is what will make you go unnoticed in the casino.
  • learningtocount said:
    When you sit downto a blackjack game why don't you buy two colors of chips for the small player red and green $5 and $25 chips sit back bet the red until the count runs favorable than bet the green!!! I think that this style of betting attracks a lot less attenion than betting 5 red chips because it is a lot less visual appealing because when you win you are only winning one chip even though it is 5 times the amount!!! This with stuffing your pockets with chips is what will make you go unnoticed in the casino.


    In a casino like yours, they will watch the black chips carefully and the pit will or should know who has them. Many casinos watch the black and higher chips when they can.
    In most casinos (some low rolling sweat shops will watch green) green chips are the ones to pocket but there is a danger in doing this which must be overcome. You will piss off the pit and make a sharp pit suspicious of your play, if caught pocketing a few green. They get pissed because you might force them to order a fill. They expect you to pocket black and higher chips, like you hope you are putting them in the vault and not going to take them out, but pocketing green. why??? Because perhaps you do not want them to know just how much you are up and they are right.
    So rathole all you want slowly. Think about the times that the dealer, pit and the eye are busy and you will not be noticed. Take a couple a chips off your pile of 20 but do not take half because it will be noticed. Think about players coming in or out of your table, other people coloring up and how the chips can flow off of the table, it is easy to do. Just be careful doing it.

    ihate17
  • I just wanted to clerify that it is not against the rules to pocket your own chips. Playing with other players makes it a lot harder for the casino to know how much you have won!!!
  • learningtocount said:
    I just wanted to clerify that it is not against the rules to pocket your own chips. Playing with other players makes it a lot harder for the casino to know how much you have won!!!


    A good point. When playing heads up you can attract more attention when you go to the big bets, so even if the pit has not done a count recently, pocketing chips might not be the smartest thing to do.

    ihate17
  • Hey, I am new to this site. I was referred here by a friend thanks to my huge love of cards. Poker has always been my game, but that’s just because stupid high school kids play poker, and ignore what happens to their money, not blackjack. I will always be wherever the money is and I know a fair amount of it is in the black jack game. *not that anyone can laugh off a 7.5 million dollar 1st place…yes I like many stupidly hope for that even though that would be all luck.* My first question is to learningtocount, how old do you have to be to get a job in a casino, and how hard is it? Such as what sorts of things would be sought out on a job application for a dealer. Next question is for ihate17, you are obviously very advanced and experienced, just wondering what style of counting do you use, and do you have any experience with the Minnesota games? And as for the Minnesota question, if you have any knowledge of the 18 legal gambling age up there, that would be appreciated as well. I have only been on the board for about an hour or so, so my apologies if these things are talked about elsewhere.
  • I am not that familar with Minnesotta games, fairly hard to get to. I think I have been to Seven Clans, Treasure Is. and Jacpot Junction and a few others, nothing really memorable but a few decent games.

    In California, some of the native casinos allow gambling and have hired dealers who are over 18. These casinos are not allowed to serve alcohol but one has a restaurant deep inside the casino that does serve it (you can not leave the restaurant with a drink and bring it on to the casino floor).

    The under 21 rule at these casinos bothers me because at one of them close to several major colleges, I see these kids losing money they need for school all the time.

    I use AO2 (advanced omega 2)for pitch games and hi low for shoes.

    ihate17
  • I’m not writing this to sound conceited, so don’t take it as that. I’m not an idiot college student who walks into a casino with 100 bucks extra from his job that week and plays 30 hands of blackjack and says aw shit, I lost it all. I have in fact only played blackjack once when I dealt at one of my brothers parties, where I made over 30 bucks in 2 decks worth of dealing. I have played poker all through high school, games as low as 5 dollars and as big as 40 for buy in. Chump change for some of you on here I’m sure, but I’m 17. I’ve calculated my winnings to almost 2,000$. But that’s poker, with blackjack I know that the odds are not in favor of the player, and that’s why I haven’t ever played it. That’s why I’m on here, to see if it is a possible way to make money. Clearly it is if someone is as good as you (iHate17)and can double they’re bankrolls as much as you. What I’m looking for is a good step by step program to improve my blackjack game to the point where I can sit at a low table and maybe win a couple hundred in a few hours of play and pretend to be a lucky college student just there to waste his money. I don’t however mean to walk into this stupidly and just start playing. I’ve been very uncertain about blackjack for quite some time, but my friend officially got me to commit. Going to get Renzey’s book, that seems quite well acclaimed from this site, as well as others. Suggestions of course are appreciated, especially ihate17, you seem to be the guy on here that talks.
  • BlackJackRook said:
    I’m not writing this to sound conceited, so don’t take it as that. I’m not an idiot college student who walks into a casino with 100 bucks extra from his job that week and plays 30 hands of blackjack and says aw shit, I lost it all. I have in fact only played blackjack once when I dealt at one of my brothers parties, where I made over 30 bucks in 2 decks worth of dealing. I have played poker all through high school, games as low as 5 dollars and as big as 40 for buy in. Chump change for some of you on here I’m sure, but I’m 17. I’ve calculated my winnings to almost 2,000$. But that’s poker, with blackjack I know that the odds are not in favor of the player, and that’s why I haven’t ever played it. That’s why I’m on here, to see if it is a possible way to make money. Clearly it is if someone is as good as you (iHate17)and can double they’re bankrolls as much as you. What I’m looking for is a good step by step program to improve my blackjack game to the point where I can sit at a low table and maybe win a couple hundred in a few hours of play and pretend to be a lucky college student just there to waste his money. I don’t however mean to walk into this stupidly and just start playing. I’ve been very uncertain about blackjack for quite some time, but my friend officially got me to commit. Going to get Renzey’s book, that seems quite well acclaimed from this site, as well as others. Suggestions of course are appreciated, especially ihate17, you seem to be the guy on here that talks.


    To expect to win a couple hundred in a few hours you need a 20k+ BR. You can make money counting cards, but keep in mind you need a large BR to do so. 1% of your total bankroll should be your max top bet. The lack of a bankroll is what keeps a lot of counters from being successful. Mystic Lake is the place to be in MN, they probably have the best penetration in the world. The game is getting tough now though. They are backing off people more aggressively I believe. Jackpot Junction, Praries edge, and Treasure Island have good double deck games(.19HA), but the penetration usually isn't great. It may be worth a trip to turtle lake or hole in the wall casino.
  • Cass is correct concerning bankroll, but bankroll can be different things to different people. One with a limited bankroll but a job that earns him more than he needs each month can constantly feed his bankroll.

    The biggest misconception for most begginners is how the money is made. Casinos have helped mislead people by spinning off things like cardcounters think a casino is their personal ATM machine. The truth is very different. You can make money. Depending upon your bankroll, talent and the quality of the games you play, you might make a lot of money or just be recreational and take pleasure in the fact that you are capable of beating a casino at their own game. But the money will never ever come in the way you mentioned. You might win $3,200 and then lose $3,500 and then win $800 and lose $100, which means you won $100 per session. The swings (variance) of the game are immense and that is why Cass mentioned a big bankroll to just make a little money. You are only attempting to get a 1.5% or so advantage and that is not a big edge.

    Being 17 years old, I would suggest that you just work on your education. Being a pro blackjack player is expensive (costs of travel, hotels etc), requires a very large bankroll, often you find places will not let you play, and is just not a normal lifestyle for most of us. I know a few full time players but all of them have been very successful in other fields. Many of the best players have other business type interests. Get your education, get a good job and if you still have a burning desire to be a cardcounter get some good books. I would suggest you go to bj21.com and check their books for sale out because they are all pretty good to excellent, the books found in your local bookstore are mostly (not all) useless progression BS. This site can teach you basic strategy but there are a few errors in the program. Most of those books have basic strategy charts, you can download charts at wizardofodds.com and remember there are little differences in basic strategy depending upon the game you are playing. Learn this to the point where you do not have to even think about it before you ever try counting. A percentage of the money made as a counter is made by deviating from basic strategy depending upon the count and you can not properly deviate from something if you do not know it.

    Play only good games.
    Learn to count down a deck in well under 30 seconds.
    Have the guts (and bankroll) to continue to put out the big bets when called for, even when the house is beating your butt.
    Learn to be extremely concious of what is happening around you while not looking like you are watching.
    Learn to talk to players, dealers, waitresses and the pit while never loosing the count or looking like you are watching every card.
    There is a lot more. The point is perhaps 100 people or much more attempt counting and fail or every one who becomes a winning counter. These are some of the pitfalls and no bankroll is the most obvious of them all because of the swings.

    Finally, money spent gambling, as a tourist or advantage player, should be money that you can afford to lose. Never gamble your rent money no matter how good you are. Any pro or good counter who has done this for years will tell you that they have had full years where they landed up losing. I lost 3 of the first 5 years I counted, in the past 24 years I have had 3 more losing years and that includes other things I have done such as holecarding. You might gain an edge but it is no gaurantee!

    ihate17

    ihate17
  • Certainly one of the better posts on this forum. An informative treatment of the subject.
  • Alright, that’s what I was kind of looking for, however you did do a great job of making me really want to count now. You said that with a small bankroll it wouldn’t be possible, which is the auto turn off for a college student because I’d be walking in there with a max BR of 2k. I am expecting to focus on Education while at college, but I figured earning money in a casino on the weekend would be better then going and getting drunk. Was just checking options, blackjack seemed like a possibility, but now I see that poker is a much better option. The only thing is that you said less then 1% of blackjack counters become successful, and that pretty much means that I’ll be doing anything to be one of those some point in the future. Thanks for the numbers, is there any good software that I could download to practice counting?
  • BlackJackRook said:
    Alright, that’s what I was kind of looking for, however you did do a great job of making me really want to count now. You said that with a small bankroll it wouldn’t be possible, which is the auto turn off for a college student because I’d be walking in there with a max BR of 2k. I am expecting to focus on Education while at college, but I figured earning money in a casino on the weekend would be better then going and getting drunk. Was just checking options, blackjack seemed like a possibility, but now I see that poker is a much better option. The only thing is that you said less then 1% of blackjack counters become successful, and that pretty much means that I’ll be doing anything to be one of those some point in the future. Thanks for the numbers, is there any good software that I could download to practice counting?


    You could play with the 2k, your top bet should not be more than $50. You would have to accept that overall your Risk or ruin would be around 15%. Meaning you have a 15% chance of losing it all before you would make enough money that it would not be possible to go broke (assuming you were doing things correctly). 2k is a good trip bankroll for a $50 top bet(spreading 5-50). You could always plan on adding more to your bankroll in the future.
  • o.k.-
    you certainly do have to apply yourself to learn card counting but despite what the casinos would like you to think it's not rocket science.
    get Fred Renzeys' Blackjack Bluebook II and learn the kiss III count-it gets the $$$$$$$$$$.
    best of luck-
    Paganguy
  • cass said:
    You could play with the 2k, your top bet should not be more than $50. You would have to accept that overall your Risk or ruin would be around 15%. Meaning you have a 15% chance of losing it all before you would make enough money that it would not be possible to go broke (assuming you were doing things correctly). 2k is a good trip bankroll for a $50 top bet(spreading 5-50). You could always plan on adding more to your bankroll in the future.


    I would suggest you wong into positive shoes and wong out of negative ones as much as possible. Many casinos will not allow mid entry on single or double deck games but any casino worth playing does let you enter their shoe games. Learn to make your cell phone ring, take bathroom breaks, or just leave during negative counts.

    ihate17
  • How old do you have to be to get a job as a dealer? Where I work in Nevada you have to be at least 21 or the gambling age. In california where you can gamble at the age of 18 I think that some places might let you deal at the age of 18. As far as getting a job dealing they are very very hard to come by especially if you haven't dealt before. Even though I went to dealing school before it took me almost a year to find my dealing job and it didn't help me much because I still had to go through the clubs dealing school too. If you can find a club that will train there dealers and hire breaks it is a god send.

    As far as your $2,000 bankroll I think that it is sufficient enough to have an advantage counting cards if you are really good at it and you play at a table with a $5 minimum making maximum bets of $25!!! With a $2,000 bank roll you have you have 400 $5 units in the book beat the dealer they say that with perfet play the odds of losing 200 units is less than 1%!!!

    But you must use your money only for blackjack and not make stupid side bets like Royal match or most of the time insurance. I say most of the time because if you are card counting and you identify there is less than a 2 to 1 ratio of non-tens to tens than insurance should be taken. Basically if you can look at everybody elses cards and there are no tens in them than you should take insurance!!!
  • Ray said:
    If they make learningtocount shuffle when a new player wants to enter, this will effectively eliminate backcounting (low limit). I've never seen that procedure. Could it be that he is dealing at a green or black table that has the mid-deck/shoe sign in place and it is standard procedure to wait for the shuffle prior to entry?


    I witnessed re-shuffle upon a new player entering last year in Vegas at the California Casino. I hated that! After 2 rounds I got really annoyed and moved on to somewhere else. That was the only casino I ever saw them re-shuffle upon a new player entering.
  • i_dream_of_Jaynie3367 said:
    I witnessed re-shuffle upon a new player entering last year in Vegas at the California Casino. I hated that! After 2 rounds I got really annoyed and moved on to somewhere else. That was the only casino I ever saw them re-shuffle upon a new player entering.


    Crystal Bay, where learningtocount deals is always sweating the money as is California.

    ihate17
  • When I have a full table and a single deck there is a very good possibility that I will only have two rounds of cards in me.
  • I harldy ever win at the Eldorado playing blackjack especially on my bigger bets. It is partically because of there shitty rules. However i feel that I win a lot more when i go to boomtown they have the best rules in the
    Reno-Tahoe simple because you can double down on any two cards and blackjack pays normal 3 to 2 on a single deck game!!! I also win a lot of my big bets there!!! I have nine players cards and have gone to a lot of different casinos and Boomtown is the only single deck game that lets you double on any 2 cards!!!
  • I would like to thank all the people that participated in this discusion and all the guest and members who viewed this discusion making it the most viewed forum on this page this post got more views than we have members!!!
  • Betting two spots helps defeat the mind play machines because they are only designed to tell how much somebody is winning or losing in one paticular spot! If you bet two spots you can spreadout your betting and have an excuse to bet more!!! The club doubles the minimum if you bet two spots!!! If the count is really good you can bet two spots and spreadout how much you bet!
  • I got backed off from a Vegas casino for my first time. You can read my brief story in the experiences and stories section of the board if you like.

    My question is this:

    I only go to Vegas once a year so I'm not sure if I can get away with going back in that place again next August. They didn't ban me from the place, they only told me I couldn't play black jack because "They didn't like my play". 2 days before this happned when I was in there I noticed they have their stupid book binder in the pit that contains security camera pictures of various players that they don't want playing. If you haven't noticed it before its a white binder contains memos and pictures (1-2 photos per sheet). So I am assuming they got my photo... or maybe they got a lousy photo since I was wearing a baseball cap? Who knows. But anyways I was wondering if time cools all that friction off? Sorry if that is a stupid question to ask, but this is my first time being backed off so it is a big deal to me and also a learning experience. The place I went to is totally paranoid and has the dealer announce "checks in play!" on a bet of $25 or more. Annoying!!!

    If they totally want to rip people off why don't they change their stupid ass sign from $5-$500 to $5-$10. This place is the worst in guest service. They dont acknowledge the patrons and they humilliate the dealers if they catch a mistake. If I can do a quick hit and run in there next year and have a friend cash in my chips I would love to.

    Anyone have advice, comments, tips, or suggestions?

    Thanx!
  • Several tips:

    (1) you can go back. But don't play with the same pit boss if you can remember him/her. If you were read the trespass notice, and you signed an acknowledgement of such or they did it in front of a camera with audio, then stay away. But yours doesn't seem to fit that so I wouldn't worry and would go back if the game is playable next year.

    (2) do _not_ camp out at a table. Keep sessions under an hour per pit. That keeps you under the radar.

    (3) avoid playing across shift changes. This is because the two pit bosses discuss the "transition" and if you are playing when they change, they will discuss your play briefly and you don't want that kind of attention at all, if avoidable.

    There are enough good games in Vegas that you don't have to become a "tombstone" (pit name for a player that sits at a table for hours). The longer you play, the more data you give the pit and the eye. And the more noticable you become. If you don't get noticed, they will have no reason to do a skills check and discover you are counting...

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