• any one here ever uses the unbalanced zen 2 count? in other forums people told me it was the best unbalanced count and better than KO, is it better than KO? and one ever used it?

    thanks, bnoc848
  • It is the system supported by the likes of Zengrifter, but I do not recommend that you start with UBZ2. If you have never counted before, you may find it difficult to start out with multi-level tags.

    Three reasons why I would advocate using KO over UBZ2:

    1. If you opt to choose a more difficult count and make as little as one or two mistakes per hour (especially likely if you're a novice) then it will effectively wipe out any added advantage you were seeking. This is a very important concept, make sure you understand it.

    2. It requires more energy to use a more advanced count, and you may find yourself playing fewer hands per hour. In addition, the more complex a count, the longer it will take to master. This can be a problem if you are impatient and eager to start playing in a casino.

    3. The advantages of ubz2 over KO in shoe games are minimal, maybe about one or two percent greater in betting efficiency. Do not expect to make a fortune using ubz2 over KO.

    Start with something simple. Later on, as your skills and endurance improve, the switch over to an advanced count won't be much of a problem.

    Also note that there are many factors far more important in making an advantage player than the ones surrounding the question of "which count is better?".
  • as mr zengrifter told me, i should start off by reading a begginer book, he and other people recommended blackbelt in blackjack. and your right the advantages are very small but still is an advantage (1 deck is the same, 2 deck .5, 6 deck .3, 8 deck .3% more) if you compare money,

    good depth, 1 deck, rules: S17, spread 1-10, with a bank roll of 7500$ in an hour.

    KO- 155.10$
    UBZ2- 172.58$
    =17.48$ more an hour!

    not much more advantage in % but shows alot in the $!

    as doing the sims, KO even beat some balanced systems, so why not choose KO! or another easy unbalanced system.
  • bnoc848 said:
    as mr zengrifter told me, i should start off by reading a begginer book, he and other people recommended blackbelt in blackjack. and your right the advantages are very small but still is an advantage (1 deck is the same, 2 deck .5, 6 deck .3, 8 deck .3% more) if you compare money,

    good depth, 1 deck, rules: S17, spread 1-10, with a bank roll of 7500$ in an hour.

    KO- 155.10$
    UBZ2- 172.58$
    =17.48$ more an hour!

    not much more advantage in % but shows alot in the $!

    as doing the sims, KO even beat some balanced systems, so why not choose KO! or another easy unbalanced system.


    Except that finding a real SD with S17 is getting close to impossible,and the many hours more that you'll need to master a system like UBZ could be spent playing KO, so what exactly is your point?
  • Where did you get your results from? A Deep penetration and a 1-10 spread on a single deck are unrealistic. Try comparing them in multideck as well.
  • UBZII has a betting correlation of 96.5% and a playing efficiency of 61.7%. Unlike KO however, and like KISS and Red 7, its advantage is that its "zero error" point is at +2 true rather than +4 true. This provides a smaller error between the running count and true count at most encountered true count ranges. UBZII's strongest point is its high theoretical playing efficiency, yet ironically, unbalanced counts by their nature are not all that good at implementing their playing efficiencies. From the sims run for B/J BBII (pg 194), and by the way, these were totally unbiased, the systems in question yielded these results:

    SIX DECK
    KO full matrix: +.68%
    KISS III: +.70%
    Red 7 w/21 individual indices: +.71%
    Hi/Lo w/ 75 indices: +.72%
    UBZII w/ 21 individual indices: +.72%

    DOUBLE DECK
    KO full matrix: +.69%
    KISSIII: +.69%
    Red 7 w/21 individual indices: +.68%
    Hi/Lo w/75 indices: +.74%
    UNZII w/21 individual indices: +.73%

    Dollarwise, their relative earning abilities would be nearly proportional to those numbers.

    A last comment. I'm pretty sure its not true that a couple of counting errors per hour would wipe out one's advantage -- for the same reason that if you never hit 12 against a 2 or 3, it would worsen your overall EV by only .05%. That is, occasional smallish mistakes affect your outcome so infrequently that their effects boil down to meaning quite little.
    KISS III:
  • Please disregard the "KISS III" appearing at the end of the last post. It was a leftover typo.
  • A last comment. I'm pretty sure its not true that a couple of counting errors per hour would wipe out one's advantage -- for the same reason that if you never hit 12 against a 2 or 3, it would worsen your overall EV by only .05%.


    Though it is true that mistakes do not entirely eliminate one's advantage, they may will eliminate the "added" advantage one is seeking in using a slightly more advanced system. In other words, a player using ubz2 over KO will not have an added advantage if it results in making several counting mistakes per hour.
  • so UBZ2 is still better, and i got time enough to learn the count so mistakes wont be made! also renzey, whats w/21 indices?


    thanks for your response guys.
  • also renzey, i got your book as a starter guide so i could then learn the UBZ2, is the KISS III with 2's counted as half better than the UBZ2?
  • 848 -- "w/21 indices" means using the 21 index plays for basic strategy departure laid out on pg. 155 of B/J BBII.

    In sims I've run, the KISS 3A performed on just about a dead par with UBZII.
    Academically, KISS 3A is 97.5% BC and 56.2% PE. UBZII is 96.5% BC and 61.7% PE with BC being the more important attribute.

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