Once, just 4 the hell of it,
when the Dealer's first two Cards were a 6 and a 4,
I pushed out two $5.00 Chips to the Dealer, and said,
"I'd like to Double-Down on your 10"...LOL

ihate17 said:

Counters do get tossed while winning and so do lucky players at many sweat joints, but ask enough experienced counters and they will tell you that getting the tap while losing is something that happens quite often but only happens in casinos that actually know what they are doing. I kind of think some of the casino personel get a kick out of backing a counter off while he is losing big, letting him know that he will not make a comeback in their house. My second backoff came while losing.

ihate17

Last night i got backed off. I was down about 4k making a comeback. when i got notified to leave. Fortunately I was up 1k when i cashed out due to a very good shoe right before they came. Overall i took them for about 7k over the last couple months.

learningtocount said:

In the casino that I work in there is a mindplay system that reads all the cards at the end of the bet and reads how much the player is betting. This computor can determine if you are an advantage player or not weather or not you are winning or losing.

Mindplay: A machine specifically designed to reduce pit and surviellance personal, reduce comps, catch counters and cheats and also has the ability to cheat every player on the table unless they obey the recent edict of the Nevada Gaming Board, creating an 8 hand delay on the real count being transmitted to the pit. What you as a dealer probably do not know and what is not suppossed to be transmitted to the pit is that it also knows the exact order of the cards not yet dealt!!!!!!!!

Do you deal at the El Dorado in Reno? If so, you should know that several excellent card counters have heavily fed on Mindplay, while amatuer counters are easily caught. Same happened at both Hilton and Flamingo in Vegas but those machines have been removed. They were not removed because of the counters winning but because in Vegas, the players voted against it and went instead to other casinos. Also, it is rumored that pit types, not liking the thing would find ways for breakdowns to happen.
If you do deal at El Dorado, you should be aware that they are the casino that used to cheat every player on the table (except counters because they understood what was happening) by shuffling early when the remaining cards favored the players and dealing on when those cards favored the house. A law suit brought by a California attorney against El Dorado and Bally Gaming was dropped when the gaming board brought in the 8 hand delay.

If you work at a Casino in basically an isolated area, where addicted gamblers have no choice but your game, then Mindplay will work for you, but where given a choice players do not like things on the table that they do not understand and blame everything that goes wrong on these things.

If you check the patent application of Bally Gaming for Mindplay21, you will see listed as the benifits to the casino, in order of importance:
1. Reduction of personel, pit and surviellance: Less salaries, sick days, benifits and retirement.
My experience: A casino dependent upon something like Mindplay will land up with a weak pit and eye, who feel the machine will do their job for them.

2. Reduction of comps: It is well known to casino management that comps for table games have been based upon an estimate made by the pit. If the pit likes someone, they could easily have boosted their amount of comps. The use of Mindplay gives players the exact amount of comps that they deserve, so there are no comps for that bathroom break, fewer comps when the table is full and absolutely no favors given.

3. It will catch cheaters and advantage players: It prevents the holding out of a card on a pitch game, it prevents bet capping and probably prevents any kind of cheating where cards or chips are involved.
It will also catch a card counter who is inexperienced and just counts but is useless against teams and experienced counters with an understanding of the gizmo have been very successful in beating it. Basically, it catches the counters who are losing counters anyway.

The reading of the cards is done after the shuffle, when it is placed temporarily in the recessed area where there is a reader that reads the code on the edges of the cards, so the order and reading is actually done before you deal, unless there is a new version I have not seen yet.

Basically, Mindplay has been a winner for the salesman of Mindplay, a winner in a few isolated spots and may be a winner at Mohegan Sun because there is no casino next door. Mindplay has been a loser in Vegas and today there are no Mindplay machines in Vegas and no one has announced that they want to try it out. It is one of those things that companies like Bally Gaming and Shufflemaster love to come out with. It prays upon the two most important factors in selling something to a casino, Greed and Paranoia, and as long as it does this it will sell, even if it does not really deliever.

I have played at the El Dorado at least 6 times and was never spotted as an advantage player.
I had played at the Hilton, while they had Mindplay, 15 times, won in 9 of those sesssions and the total of wins and loses put me up in mid 5 figures, and never got a tap on the shoulder.
I never played Mindplay at Flamingo.

Mindplay is no big deal, it is actually a bad joke on casinos and their staff but perhaps a new and improved system is on the drawing board (Shufflemaster has one they are working on now) and it will be a threat.

ihate17

I wouldn't mind working there because there dealers make bank there. They make so much in tips they probably owe money every paycheck.[/QUOTE]
????????????????????!!!!!!!!!

Dealers don't shuffle because cards either favor the player or the house they shuffle for one of two reasons there running out of cards or they have a new player coming in. The told me that I have to reshuffle before letting a new player in. Never once has the pit boss come over to me and told me to shuffle because the count was too high or too low. My screen doesn't tell me the count just if I have a blackjack and what spots have bets out.

I don't deal with card counters because technically they are not cheating. The pit boss is the one to deal with card counters not the dealers. The dealers want to see the players win because tippically winners tip better. It is our job as dealers to run a fair game. Where people arent pinching or pressing there bets, or switching cards out that type of stuff. But a person vering there bet is not something that I kick out players for doing. The pit boss can if he or she feels a person is counting kick a player out or ask them not to play blackjack.

learningtocount said:

Dealers don't shuffle because cards either favor the player or the house they shuffle for one of two reasons there running out of cards or they have a new player coming in. The told me that I have to reshuffle before letting a new player in. Never once has the pit boss come over to me and told me to shuffle because the count was too high or too low. My screen doesn't tell me the count just if I have a blackjack and what spots have bets out.

If you were dealing at El Dorado a year ago, you would have been preferential shuffling. There have been no reports of them doing this since the gaming board decision but I find it amazing that the board did not put a heafty fine on them because it is cheating. They basically changed the odds of the game by only dealing when the cards favored the house. The nature of blackjack is the game has a house edge, say .40% but as the cards are dealt out, the advantage either increases or decreases depending on what has been removed from play. So sometimes the house has a 2% advantage and sometime the player might but in the long term the house has a .4% advantage. Now if you only deal when the house has the edge, you deal when the house has a big edge and when they have a small edge but rarely when they do not have an edge. Result, the house edge is much greater.

Anyway, this information is now supposed to be and seems to be disabled, but since Hilton and Flamingo chose to be honest (they also used Mindplay on a game with a cut card, so perhaps that played into their honestly,) should not El Dorado have been punished.

Finally, I find it kind of strange that your casino requires you to shuffle when a new player enters, the usual is he is allowed in with no change or he must wait till the next shuffle. What is to stop your casino from sending a shill to the table when the count is high, make you shuffle and leave after a single hand??????????

ihate17

Bojack1 said:

Thank you for that answer, thats the one I was looking for. Most counters will not be bothered if you are playing low stakes. If you notice the pit bosses they barely take notice of the $5 thru $15 minimum player. Heck even trying to get their notice for the comps can be downright difficult. They usually cater to the players putting out bigger money. At the lower limit tables your dealer is the only real connection you have to the casino. Sure the pit bosses get called for cash ins and color out, but so many times they really come over for just procedure reasons, not really paying attention to the actual action. And very few dealers even know how to play advantage blackjack, let alone spot it. Honestly very few dealers know how to even play basic strategy, so there is no real threat from them. And as learningtocount said the dealers are typically on the players side in hopes of better tips. So if you're counting at one of these lower limit tables I wouldn't worry about spreads or cover play too much, or catching any heat. Its when you move your play up to the green tables and higher where you should start concerning yourself with cover. Although I would like to add, if you are at a red table betting heavy green or black, then you will draw attention to yourself. The best bet is to play the color that the table calls for, its easier to blend in that way, and you can stash chips to hide the amount you really have. If you're the only one playing black at a red table, they know exactly how much you have, and how much you've won.

Be careful about the never back off red chip players. About 3 months ago I was backed off at a casino in Reno playing heads up or with 1 other player going from $5 to $30. It was a weekday afternoon shift. So it can happen.

nc-tom, Your case is exactly why I did not say it never can happen. I did stress it is unlikely, but as you well know, nothing is a gaurantee in this game. I will still stand by my statement that most red chip play does not get the close scrutiny that larger play does. I try to say this without offending anyone, and I apologize if I do, but most counters will not play at a level of success that would concern the casinos anyway. There is such a feeling of paranoia among counters about getting caught playing an advantage game, but that comes more from stories that have been blown out of proportion or just plain old myth. I'm not saying play like a fool, I'm saying don't be fooled into thinking that all eyes are on you and one slip up with your cover and you're going to get that tap. Don't get me wrong the eye in the sky is on you, but without direction from the floor, they're just creating a history of whats going on. They can go back and check your play later if they're suspicious, but than again remember there are thousands of people playing in the casino everyday, to get your play checked you most likely have had to had one or all of these things happen, been extremely successful at the table, while betting the larger of your bets, having your large bets actually amount to something, and have a history of this with consistent winning. With that being said its even more rare for the red chipper to get backed off due to previous play, not impossible, just rare. Listen I am by no means all knowing on this subject, ihate17 seems to have some incredible knowledge about the casinos ability to observe and control these situations. All I'm trying to say is play a good smart advantage game. If more players worried how to play correctly instead of how to hide their play, than they might actually get a reason to hide it.

Where the make me shuffle before a new player enters is on the single deck game not on the shoe game on the shoe game players can enter as they please with no shuffle.

A lot of the times players will want to play right after I have dealt a blackjack because they feel that I'm a lucky dealer. I will finish up the hand than I will shuffle regardless of what comes out. There could be 3 blackjacks that pop out on a single deal or there could be two 2 pairs of 5's either way I will shuffle up the cards and welcome the new player to the game. Thats the way that I like to do it because i like to welcome new players to the table and not make them wait or feel excluded from the game. Not all the dealers will do that though. By the way in most places you are aloud to ask for a shuffle anytime that you want!!! By the way I work at the Crystal Bay Club on the North shore, it is near the
Cal-Neva, Biltmore and John kelly's Nugget which has an Izzy's.

I won't shuffle a shoe though they can just come in and play. The only time I will shuffle a shoe are when I reach the red card of course I will finish the round or when the game is dead and there are cards left there even if I haveonly gone through a deck or so.

learningtocount said:

I was wondering if that answered your question on proceedure? Are you going to come to the crystal bay club and play?

When you said you had Mindplay21 and were not at the El Dorado, I did not think about Chrystal Bay but shuld have.

If I do show up, you will not know it. But if they still have a $200 max bet there, I might just walk around, take a look, perhaps play a half hour and leave on my next trip through Northern Nevada. The bet level in the place is just too low for me.

ihate17

Never said I bet $200 per hand, but I do bet over $200 often. Your board name is Learningtocount, so do not forget there is a spread involved. You only win with flat betting if you have additional information.
Playing where I would stick out is also a bad idea. Most times in a low rolling place I would be with someone who has a smaller bankroll and just watch them play.
ihate17

Loosing a couple of thousand dollars to a player should not be a big deal to a casino. If they had a tenth of a brain, they knew she was not counting.
So if they were suspicious they needed to find out if she was hole carding? Or if ($200 tip is way way way too big for a $2,000 win) she was playing with the help? If she was playing with the help, she will be back with the same dealer.
Winning a couple grand is just luck. You deal; how many times have you seen a guy who was a terrible blackjack player get on a run? Anyone can win for a short period of time. With your pit and your Mindplay device, you folks should have figured out that she was lucky, comped her nicely and enticed her to play more. The problem with the sweat shop mentality is that if you do get a player willing to bet big, once they go on a run, a sweat shop will run scared but a smart casino will comp that player well and entice them to play more and eventually get all their money plus the players money.

ihate17

learningtocount said:

When you sit downto a blackjack game why don't you buy two colors of chips for the small player red and green $5 and $25 chips sit back bet the red until the count runs favorable than bet the green!!! I think that this style of betting attracks a lot less attenion than betting 5 red chips because it is a lot less visual appealing because when you win you are only winning one chip even though it is 5 times the amount!!! This with stuffing your pockets with chips is what will make you go unnoticed in the casino.

In a casino like yours, they will watch the black chips carefully and the pit will or should know who has them. Many casinos watch the black and higher chips when they can.
In most casinos (some low rolling sweat shops will watch green) green chips are the ones to pocket but there is a danger in doing this which must be overcome. You will piss off the pit and make a sharp pit suspicious of your play, if caught pocketing a few green. They get pissed because you might force them to order a fill. They expect you to pocket black and higher chips, like you hope you are putting them in the vault and not going to take them out, but pocketing green. why??? Because perhaps you do not want them to know just how much you are up and they are right.
So rathole all you want slowly. Think about the times that the dealer, pit and the eye are busy and you will not be noticed. Take a couple a chips off your pile of 20 but do not take half because it will be noticed. Think about players coming in or out of your table, other people coloring up and how the chips can flow off of the table, it is easy to do. Just be careful doing it.

ihate17

learningtocount said:

I just wanted to clerify that it is not against the rules to pocket your own chips. Playing with other players makes it a lot harder for the casino to know how much you have won!!!

A good point. When playing heads up you can attract more attention when you go to the big bets, so even if the pit has not done a count recently, pocketing chips might not be the smartest thing to do.

ihate17

I am not that familar with Minnesotta games, fairly hard to get to. I think I have been to Seven Clans, Treasure Is. and Jacpot Junction and a few others, nothing really memorable but a few decent games.

In California, some of the native casinos allow gambling and have hired dealers who are over 18. These casinos are not allowed to serve alcohol but one has a restaurant deep inside the casino that does serve it (you can not leave the restaurant with a drink and bring it on to the casino floor).

The under 21 rule at these casinos bothers me because at one of them close to several major colleges, I see these kids losing money they need for school all the time.

I use AO2 (advanced omega 2)for pitch games and hi low for shoes.

ihate17

BlackJackRook said:

I’m not writing this to sound conceited, so don’t take it as that. I’m not an idiot college student who walks into a casino with 100 bucks extra from his job that week and plays 30 hands of blackjack and says aw shit, I lost it all. I have in fact only played blackjack once when I dealt at one of my brothers parties, where I made over 30 bucks in 2 decks worth of dealing. I have played poker all through high school, games as low as 5 dollars and as big as 40 for buy in. Chump change for some of you on here I’m sure, but I’m 17. I’ve calculated my winnings to almost 2,000$. But that’s poker, with blackjack I know that the odds are not in favor of the player, and that’s why I haven’t ever played it. That’s why I’m on here, to see if it is a possible way to make money. Clearly it is if someone is as good as you (iHate17)and can double they’re bankrolls as much as you. What I’m looking for is a good step by step program to improve my blackjack game to the point where I can sit at a low table and maybe win a couple hundred in a few hours of play and pretend to be a lucky college student just there to waste his money. I don’t however mean to walk into this stupidly and just start playing. I’ve been very uncertain about blackjack for quite some time, but my friend officially got me to commit. Going to get Renzey’s book, that seems quite well acclaimed from this site, as well as others. Suggestions of course are appreciated, especially ihate17, you seem to be the guy on here that talks.

To expect to win a couple hundred in a few hours you need a 20k+ BR. You can make money counting cards, but keep in mind you need a large BR to do so. 1% of your total bankroll should be your max top bet. The lack of a bankroll is what keeps a lot of counters from being successful. Mystic Lake is the place to be in MN, they probably have the best penetration in the world. The game is getting tough now though. They are backing off people more aggressively I believe. Jackpot Junction, Praries edge, and Treasure Island have good double deck games(.19HA), but the penetration usually isn't great. It may be worth a trip to turtle lake or hole in the wall casino.

Certainly one of the better posts on this forum. An informative treatment of the subject.

BlackJackRook said:

Alright, that’s what I was kind of looking for, however you did do a great job of making me really want to count now. You said that with a small bankroll it wouldn’t be possible, which is the auto turn off for a college student because I’d be walking in there with a max BR of 2k. I am expecting to focus on Education while at college, but I figured earning money in a casino on the weekend would be better then going and getting drunk. Was just checking options, blackjack seemed like a possibility, but now I see that poker is a much better option. The only thing is that you said less then 1% of blackjack counters become successful, and that pretty much means that I’ll be doing anything to be one of those some point in the future. Thanks for the numbers, is there any good software that I could download to practice counting?

You could play with the 2k, your top bet should not be more than $50. You would have to accept that overall your Risk or ruin would be around 15%. Meaning you have a 15% chance of losing it all before you would make enough money that it would not be possible to go broke (assuming you were doing things correctly). 2k is a good trip bankroll for a $50 top bet(spreading 5-50). You could always plan on adding more to your bankroll in the future.

cass said:

You could play with the 2k, your top bet should not be more than $50. You would have to accept that overall your Risk or ruin would be around 15%. Meaning you have a 15% chance of losing it all before you would make enough money that it would not be possible to go broke (assuming you were doing things correctly). 2k is a good trip bankroll for a $50 top bet(spreading 5-50). You could always plan on adding more to your bankroll in the future.

I would suggest you wong into positive shoes and wong out of negative ones as much as possible. Many casinos will not allow mid entry on single or double deck games but any casino worth playing does let you enter their shoe games. Learn to make your cell phone ring, take bathroom breaks, or just leave during negative counts.

ihate17

Ray said:

If they make learningtocount shuffle when a new player wants to enter, this will effectively eliminate backcounting (low limit). I've never seen that procedure. Could it be that he is dealing at a green or black table that has the mid-deck/shoe sign in place and it is standard procedure to wait for the shuffle prior to entry?

I witnessed re-shuffle upon a new player entering last year in Vegas at the California Casino. I hated that! After 2 rounds I got really annoyed and moved on to somewhere else. That was the only casino I ever saw them re-shuffle upon a new player entering.

When I have a full table and a single deck there is a very good possibility that I will only have two rounds of cards in me.

I would like to thank all the people that participated in this discusion and all the guest and members who viewed this discusion making it the most viewed forum on this page this post got more views than we have members!!!

I got backed off from a Vegas casino for my first time. You can read my brief story in the experiences and stories section of the board if you like.

My question is this:

I only go to Vegas once a year so I'm not sure if I can get away with going back in that place again next August. They didn't ban me from the place, they only told me I couldn't play black jack because "They didn't like my play". 2 days before this happned when I was in there I noticed they have their stupid book binder in the pit that contains security camera pictures of various players that they don't want playing. If you haven't noticed it before its a white binder contains memos and pictures (1-2 photos per sheet). So I am assuming they got my photo... or maybe they got a lousy photo since I was wearing a baseball cap? Who knows. But anyways I was wondering if time cools all that friction off? Sorry if that is a stupid question to ask, but this is my first time being backed off so it is a big deal to me and also a learning experience. The place I went to is totally paranoid and has the dealer announce "checks in play!" on a bet of $25 or more. Annoying!!!

If they totally want to rip people off why don't they change their stupid ass sign from $5-$500 to $5-$10. This place is the worst in guest service. They dont acknowledge the patrons and they humilliate the dealers if they catch a mistake. If I can do a quick hit and run in there next year and have a friend cash in my chips I would love to.

Anyone have advice, comments, tips, or suggestions?

Thanx!