HI/LOW for example.
  • Lets say that we are playing multiple deck Blackjack.
    The count tells us to increase our bet because there are
    more high cards than low cards in the deck. This helps us
    win more money on pat hands and blackjacks, but we are
    risking more money on something that is more common, like
    weak starting hands that need LOW cards (which there are
    less of).
    Now, in games that are diluted w/ low cards such as 6-8 deck
    blackjack. Even if you have a high count and get a pat hand (your
    count probably droped by the way when you got your pat hand)
    the dealer, drawing last, has a greater supply of weak cards to
    either outdraw you, or suck 1 or more aces from the deck.

    I have been using the Gregorian Strategy for MULTI decks.

    This is the part of the book that made me switch to Gregorian
    vs basic strategy (which theoretically loses less)

    Speaking of MULTI DECK ---->

    "Although the ratio of the cards with respect to each other remains the same, the total number of cards pooled together is larger. What this means is that although the ratio of cards reamains the same, your chances of pulling a particular card are greatly reduced, and your chances of pulling a small card are greatly increased."

    "In multiple deck blackjack games,then, you will be dealt a greater percentage of poor starting totals: your initial pair of cards is less likely to be a good hand."

    "Now, poor starting totals are not a problem for the dealer, because according to the rules or the game, you have to play out your hand first, and if you bust you lose, even if the dealer subsequently busts."

    "....Also, that TEN you were hoping for on your double down will be harder to catch.

    "....the dealer is more likley to beat you with a weak up card......but this works both ways: The dealer's chances of making a hand go up with multi deck games, and obviously SO DO YOURS!"

    "Another thing to keep in mind is that with multiple deck games, because of the larger pool of cards you are being dealt from, your chances of getting a blackjack are reduced, thus denying you the 3:2 payoff."

    "....since even our chances of busting also substantially go down with multiple deck games, those of us using the Gregorian Strategy will use this knowledge to our advantage and exploit it."

    At first, I tried doing what the counters do to basic strategy and add index plays based on the count. But since the Gregorian strategy works best in multiple decks when (according to my hybrid count) the count is closest to zero, I follow the rules within a count of 2 in either direction. Behond that "zone of normality" I will alter plays to 14-16, and some DOUBLE and SPLIT plays.

    As far as betting is concerned, I will bet what my bankroll can handle from the start and a little less when it swings too fare behond the zero marker.

    The reality is that anything can happen when you pool six decks together.
    The dealer is just as likley to get the higher cards as you are, but as was said above and I'll repeat --->

    "Another thing to keep in mind is that with multiple deck games, because of the larger pool of cards you are being dealt from, your chances of getting a blackjack are reduced, thus denying you the 3:2 payoff."

    So what really pays is geting those low cards on your stiff totals, which are more likely to happen---->

    "In multiple deck blackjack games,then, you will be dealt a greater percentage of poor starting totals: your initial pair of cards is less likely to be a good hand."

    And then be delighted when your dealt a pat hand that you were not likely to get :D

    OK, YOU CAN STONE ME NOW.....................................................
  • Mighty Joe said:
    Lets say that we are playing multiple deck Blackjack.
    The count tells us to increase our bet because there are
    more high cards than low cards in the deck. This helps us
    win more money on pat hands and blackjacks, but we are
    risking more money on something that is more common, like
    weak starting hands that need LOW cards (which there are
    less of).
    Now, in games that are diluted w/ low cards such as 6-8 deck
    blackjack. Even if you have a high count and get a pat hand (your
    count probably droped by the way when you got your pat hand)
    the dealer, drawing last, has a greater supply of weak cards to
    either outdraw you, or suck 1 or more aces from the deck.

    Or the opposite is true. You and the dealer have exactly the same chance of getting a good hand. Your disadvantage at blackjack comes simply from the most important rule in the game. That is, if both you and the dealer bust, you lose. Money is not made in a good count by your chance of getting better cards than the dealer. Money is made because there will be more blackjacks and you get paid 3/2 while the dealer only gets even money. Money is made because you will win a higher percentage of your doubles in a high count and a higher percentage of your splits and the dealer is not allowed to do either.


    I have been using the Gregorian Strategy for MULTI decks.

    This is the part of the book that made me switch to Gregorian
    vs basic strategy (which theoretically loses less)

    Speaking of MULTI DECK ---->

    "Although the ratio of the cards with respect to each other remains the same, the total number of cards pooled together is larger. What this means is that although the ratio of cards reamains the same, your chances of pulling a particular card are greatly reduced, and your chances of pulling a small card are greatly increased."

    When the ratio of the cards are the same, your chances of pulling a particular card remains EXACTLY OR NEARLY EXACTLY the same. There is no difference between 1 of 13 or 6 of 78.

    "In multiple deck blackjack games,then, you will be dealt a greater percentage of poor starting totals: your initial pair of cards is less likely to be a good hand."

    Read Fred's post to you on a different thread again.

    "Now, poor starting totals are not a problem for the dealer, because according to the rules or the game, you have to play out your hand first, and if you bust you lose, even if the dealer subsequently busts."

    "....Also, that TEN you were hoping for on your double down will be harder to catch.

    Again, this is just not true. You are basing your play on a book full of falsehoods.

    "....the dealer is more likley to beat you with a weak up card......but this works both ways: The dealer's chances of making a hand go up with multi deck games, and obviously SO DO YOURS!"

    "Another thing to keep in mind is that with multiple deck games, because of the larger pool of cards you are being dealt from, your chances of getting a blackjack are reduced, thus denying you the 3:2 payoff."

    True but by an insignificant amount.

    "....since even our chances of busting also substantially go down with multiple deck games, those of us using the Gregorian Strategy will use this knowledge to our advantage and exploit it."

    At first, I tried doing what the counters do to basic strategy and add index plays based on the count. But since the Gregorian strategy works best in multiple decks when (according to my hybrid count) the count is closest to zero, I follow the rules within a count of 2 in either direction. Behond that "zone of normality" I will alter plays to 14-16, and some DOUBLE and SPLIT plays.

    As far as betting is concerned, I will bet what my bankroll can handle from the start and a little less when it swings too fare behond the zero marker.

    The reality is that anything can happen when you pool six decks together.
    The dealer is just as likley to get the higher cards as you are, but as was said above and I'll repeat --->

    "Another thing to keep in mind is that with multiple deck games, because of the larger pool of cards you are being dealt from, your chances of getting a blackjack are reduced, thus denying you the 3:2 payoff."

    So what really pays is geting those low cards on your stiff totals, which are more likely to happen---->

    "In multiple deck blackjack games,then, you will be dealt a greater percentage of poor starting totals: your initial pair of cards is less likely to be a good hand."

    And then be delighted when your dealt a pat hand that you were not likely to get :D

    OK, YOU CAN STONE ME NOW.....................................................


    I hope you enjoy yourself with this thought method. But re-read a book based on math and know this gregorian thing is based upon instinct and voodoo.

    ihate17
  • First of all, the "math" says that if you play using basic strategy alone you will lose. Let me aslo point out that it is only by counting cards in conjunction with this losing strategy that you have a long run --->THEORETICAL <---<br /> gain.
    Now, while the math says things like "don't hit a 13 vs a 5" the fact remains that you will lose 58% of the time.
    According to the Gregorian text, it says that if you hit your 13 ONE TIME you will have a ~71% chance to IMPROVE your hand. Which doesn't mean that it will be pat, but it does mean that it is worth a try.
    Voodoo? NO! In a six deck game, SIX TIMES AS MANY LOW CARDS are shuffled in the deck, which gives you a decent shot at improving your hand.

    I do agree with Renzy now that such hands should not be hit --> until pat, but i still believe you should try once to improve them.

    13 HELPED BY:4, 5, 6, 7, 8 & hurt by 9 & 10 <--- that is 5 to 3 in favor of hitting once. Having a 5 to 3 or a 1.67 to 1 shot at improving a LOSING HAND will you not take 1 hit?<br /> 12 HELPED BY:5, 6, 7, 8, 9 & hurt by a lone 10. So having a 5 to 1 shot at improving your 12 will you stand vs 4,5, & 6?

    This is the LOGIC of the Gregorian Strategy which you can hold w/ your hands, so to speak.
    The math is how things should be played out in theory. But, when you have a weak hand in a six deck shoe w/ six times as many small cards, MORE THAN HALF of which will improve the above hands. It is pretty easy for your Voodoo to work.

    If you purchase, the book, Blackjack for blood and compare the +6 Omega stratey to the Gregorian, you will see that there are only a few changes.
    Most of which are standing more on hard totals because of the richness of the deck.
    The -6 strategy is basic strategy & the same in a neutral deck.

    Now I will list the changes from Renzy's 4-8 deck/ stand on soft17/ noDAS Strategy(you don't use the Gregorian w/ out DAS) and compare it to the Gregorian.

    Greg: 9: doubles on 2 & 7 in a NON-negative count.
    BASIC: doubles vs 3-6

    Greg: 11: doubles vs 2-9. Says that the dealer is too strong w/ a TEN to double down.
    BASIC: doubles vs a 10.

    Greg:12: Takes 1 hit then stands. Says that you have a 71% chance to improve a weak (losing) hand. Also says that even when a dealer has a 6 he will go pat greater than 50% of the time.
    BASIC: STAND vs 4-6.

    Greg: 13: Takes 1 hit then stands.
    BASIC: stand vs 2-6 which go pat >50 to 66% of the time. Again, no voodoo involved when using Gregorian.

    Greg: 14 vs 4-6 stand. Will not stand vs a high probability pat hand of 2 & 3.
    Cards that improve a 14 are: 3, 4, 5, 6, & 7 vs 8, 9, & 10. Again that is 5 to 3 to improve.
    BASIC: StAND vs 2 & 3 (along w/ 4-6, but we are just comparing the two)

    Greg: 15 vs 3-6: stand. 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6 vs 7, 8, 9 & 10 or 5 to 4. (if card counters can use an imbalance to raise wagers, why cant Greg us imbalance to take chances?)
    BASIC: StAND vs a 2.

    Greg: A/7 vs A: StAND
    BASIC: HIT vs ACE ( you make it seam like the changes to basic strategy are SOOO fuggin BIG, but as you see, they really are not.

    So far we have: used the imbalance of low cards to improve our hands, hit vs two cards (2 & 3) which are likley to go pat, and stood w/ soft 18 vs an ACE, but lets continue.

    THERE ARE NOT THAT MANY CHANGES and you can't say w/ 100% certainty that they are incorrect.

    Greg: 2/2 & 3/3 vs 4-6 SPLIT.
    BASIC: SLIT vs a 7 ( so Greg does not take the chance that the dealer will turn over a TEN and wack you on a split or turn over a low card and out draw you IF he doesn't wack you).

    Greg: 4/4 vs 4-6: SPLIT.
    BASIC: HIT VS ALL.

    Greg: 6/6 vs 4-6: SPLIT.
    BASIC: SPLIT vs a 3 (you know why Greg does not)

    Greg: 8/8 vs 2-8: SPLIT.
    BASIC: SPLIT vs 9, T, & ACE. (Greg will not risk 2x the money vs such strong starters)

    Greg: A/A vs 10 & ACE: HIT. Again, 10 and A up cards are strong starters.
    BASIC: SPLIT VS ALL.

    When you look at the "errors" they are not many. When you consider them using your own logic (not the logic of one of your gods from which ever book you read) you will agree that the plays might be helpful as aposed to theoreticly causing you to lose a little more.

    Again I say, when SIX decks are shuffled together ANYTHING can happen.
  • Originally Posted by Mighty Joe

    Lets say that we are playing multiple deck Blackjack.
    The count tells us to increase our bet because there are
    more high cards than low cards in the deck. This helps us
    win more money on pat hands and blackjacks, but we are
    risking more money on something that is more common, like
    weak starting hands that need LOW cards (which there are
    less of).
    Now, in games that are diluted w/ low cards such as 6-8 deck
    blackjack. Even if you have a high count and get a pat hand (your
    count probably droped by the way when you got your pat hand)
    the dealer, drawing last, has a greater supply of weak cards to
    either outdraw you, or suck 1 or more aces from the deck.

    POSTED IN MY QUOTE <--- By ihate17:<br />
    Or the opposite is true. You and the dealer have exactly the same chance of getting a good hand. Your disadvantage at blackjack comes simply from the most important rule in the game. That is, if both you and the dealer bust, you lose.

    Money is not made in a good count by your chance of getting better cards than the dealer. Money is made because there will be more blackjacks and you get paid 3/2 while the dealer only gets even money. Money is made because you will win a higher percentage of your doubles in a high count and a higher percentage of your splits and the dealer is not allowed to do either.

    My reply to this:

    opposite of what? I never said that you and the dealer don't have the same chance of getting a good hand.

    In responce to "Money is made because there will be more blackjacks and you get paid 3/2 while the dealer only gets even money."

    In my above post it says,"This helps us win more money on pat hands and blackjacks."

    Abviously blackjacks pay 3:2 and you win more. I am not saying that "you win more money" on pat hands, but i am saying that their increased likleyhood, do to a positive count, is a reason to increase your bets (thus more money when you win w/ these pat hands).

    I said nothing about double downs and splits, because that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the fact that NON PAT HANDS are MORE LIKLEY than PAT HANDS. And the fact that a positive count, due to the fact that more high cards are in the deck, "screws us" so to speak, because we need low cards to complete our hands <--- that is all i am saying.
  • I'm curious Mighty Joe are you also AlexD30 because you sure do ramble on and really seem to enjoy what you say just like him. Do you actually play blackjack, or do just you sit up at night thinking of ridiculous things to say to rationalize having a conversation with yourself online. I find your posts mindnumbing, and not really helpful in playing the actual game of blackjack. Everything you say is just splitting hairs with no practical value. Please put it to rest.
  • This is simply ugly:

    I do agree with Renzy now that such hands should not be hit --> until pat, but i still believe you should try once to improve them.

    13 HELPED BY:4, 5, 6, 7, 8 & hurt by 9 & 10 <--- that is 5 to 3 in favor of hitting once. Having a 5 to 3 or a 1.67 to 1 shot at improving a LOSING HAND will you not take 1 hit?<br />12 HELPED BY:5, 6, 7, 8, 9 & hurt by a lone 10. So having a 5 to 1 shot at improving your 12 will you stand vs 4,5, & 6?

    This is the LOGIC of the Gregorian Strategy which you can hold w/ your hands, so to speak.
    The math is how things should be played out in theory. But, when you have a weak hand in a six deck shoe w/ six times as many small cards, MORE THAN HALF of which will improve the above hands. It is pretty easy for your Voodoo to work.


    There is much more to it that that. You stand, period, unless you are doing index plays and card counting. Yes, the 13 is helped, but it is _not_ helped by A, 2, or 3. That is one error in the above. A 16 is not one iota better than a 13, because if the dealer busts, either will win, if the dealer doesn't bust, either will lose since the dealer hits to 17...

    So to help your hand, you need a 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8. 5 chances to make it better. But you could get a 9, 10, J, Q or K. And if you do, you lose on the spot. So you have a 5/13 chance of busting, a 5/13 chance of helping, and a 3/13 chance of doing nothing. If you stand, you rely solely on the dealer's breaking to win. If you hit, you end up with 3 chances to still need the dealer to break, 5 chances you break yourself, and the rest is easy math. So the 5:3 is wrong.

    The bottom line is to play BS. Not voodoo. Not gut feel. Not Gregorian. Not Patterson. Forget all that stuff totally.

    At one time you were working on becoming a counter. What led you astray?

    In this game, where you have three options for any hand (hit, stand or double) and a fourth for pairs (split), the decision is _always_ to choose the play with the best EV, and you can find this by either going to the wizard's web site, or by just using the coorect B/S card. If the choice is +.351 vs +.355, you make the play that gives +.355, since that is better for you.

    This is not difficult...
  • No little one, I am not AlexD30, but the Mighty One himself Mighty Joe.
    I enjoy the things that I say, just as you enjoy the things that you say.
    I am curious, are you Jerry-Kid because you sure sound like one.
    Yes, I do play blackjack, and yes I do stay up late at night, but I stay up reading books as I do not care for T.V..
    I am not having concersations w/ my self as I am writing and people are looking at the post. If no one replies, that does not mean that they did not "hear" what I had to say.
    Practical? : useful, based on past performance. <--I believe it is.<br /> Hair splitting? Maybe, but who are you to say so?
    Mindnumbing? It is behond my powers to change the fact that the logic presented in my posts is too much for your brain to handle.
    Not helpful in playing the actual game of blackjack? Again, who are you to say what is and is not helpful? There is no "one right way" to play blackjack, there is only "one theoretical right way" to play blackjack.

    No, I will not put what I have to say to rest! Just as every other member on this forum has the right to say whatever they wish to say (within the rules of the forum) as often as they wish to say it!

    If what I say is of no help to you, because you devour every drop of sweat from the scrotum of the experts and look to no other waters, then that is fine. Drink and be merry!
  • Stainless says,"If the choice is +.351 vs +.355, you make the play that gives +.355, since that is better for you."

    He is talking about making a play because it is FOUR ONE THOUSANTHS of 1% better!

    Need ye be reminded that such plays are theoretically better, in the LONG RUN, after hundreds of thousands of hands.

    Just accept that not every one plays the same way that you do.
    Not every one believes that blackjack plays are better because they are three decimal places to the right of 1% are better!

    The Gregorian Strategy Leans on Luck for support.
    Is it 100% mathematically perfect? I NEVER SAID that it was! So leave your decimals out of this!
    Based on my empirical evidence that, in the short run (fewer than hundreds of thousands of hands), that it is more profitable than using basic strategy.
    And I offer it as an alternative to the progressionists as a better way to play.
    If you are so anal about every decimal pt. of edge, then I simply am NOT talking to you. So you can go back to your card counting perfect BS buddies now and have a beer, relax!
  • I am not "working" on counting cards.

    I have: read many many books, practiced counting, deck sizing, converting to true counts.
    But not every one wants to do all this.
    Some people like to just use basic strategy.
    Some people like to just use progressions.
    And all I am saying is that the Gregorian might provide the luck that those 2 groups are looking for.
    When I say I am playing the Gregorian & have been playing it, it is because I am testing the short term results.
    I am checking it against diff. progression methods to see how any added luck from hitting affects diff progressions.
    Checking it against basic strategy in the short term.

    I do not know if it is because of short sample, or reshuffling after 10% of the cards are played in an 8 deck shoe, but it IS doing better against early shuffles on Empire Poker ( rather than BS )

    Another thought I am testing is the question: if it is so imperitive for a progressionist to win the next bet, should he double down and split like ev 1 else? You might be quick to answer, but I'de like to work on ev angle.

    I do get agressive in my posts at times and for that i apologize. I have had some awful luck these past 5 months that sent me on tilt.

    Such as: I was engaged to be merried, but my lady friend decided that she was bisexual. I came home to her eating forbidden fruit and kicked her out.
    Unfortunatly for me, she drained a small joint account we both had w/ $23,000 and went on her merry way.
    I found out recently that she is a preggo, and I hope the sl** doesn't look at me to feed whoevers spilled sp*** rests in her womb.

    It's ok stainless, no need to answer to this post. I'll just leave HitorStand alone. I'm done, good bye.
  • For christ sakes man what the hell is wrong with you? Nobody needs to hear all that personal crap. What are we supposed to dismiss your childish name calling pompous act because we're supposed to feel sorry for you? Fat chance! I don't buy into anything you say, whether it be blackjack related or personal. I know you are Alex trying to pass off another stupid theory, but since you have had so
    many others in the past you need to create a different person to make it seem credible. Listen up Sybil, you can't type worth a damn just like Alex, You can't spell worth a damn just like Alex, your posts are long and drawn out just like Alex, and you are in love with yourself just like Alex. Get the point dude! And now you are trying to pull a gracious exit because of differences of opinion, kind of what SSR did a while back. Problem here is SSR was missed because he added something to the forum. It seems you just need a forum for your drama. I won't say goodbye because you'll be back as Alex, annoying as ever.
  • Andee, SSR- Most of us have seen the "ZORRO" syndrome before, maybe at work. Technical fields usually have their share, but these prima donnas have credentials to lean on. Not so in this case. Unbelievable...........................
  • mighty joe must say your posts are unique.on a couple of you quotes though. 1-"QUOTE- not everyone believes that BJ plays are better because they are three decimal places to the right of 1% are better. The Gregorian Strategy leans on luck for support" Great advice leaning on luck should do wonders following that advice.2-" If what I say is of no help to you, because you devour every drop of sweat from the scrotum of the experts and look to no other waters, then that is fine. drink and be merry"Whoa I guess drinking from the sweat of your scrotum would be sweeter?3-" There is no "one right way" to play blackjack, there is only one theoretical right way to play blackjack. Ok great no reason to play the way the experts who have studied the game over 40 years tell you to ah. MJ do your hands ever cramp up from writing these longwinded posts? I might suggest you take a break from the creative writing classes you have taken. You might have taken one to many.
  • actually thre reason I post infrequently is/was out of respect for 'grifter... He thought I was frequently "too wordy". It comes from having been a university professor for almost 40 years, which tends to make me want to explain the "why" as well as the "what"... I thought he deserved consideration for being a moderator here (I am a moderator on multiple message boards and it is a thankless task. you hardly every get an "attaboy". More likely "why did you do that you dumb a**?" and such...) We did not have a "falling our" or any such thing, I just thought he deserved to be without the apparent annoyance I produced...


    I'm not going to get involved in these "voodoo wars" however. Either you accept the math or not. It really is that simple. MJB complains about my .001 decision. If you are a 10 $ bettor, that's a penny. Not a lot. But those pennies _do_ add up over time. And at a 10$ bet, our "1 % edge" is only a dime profit, so that penny is pretty important in that context...

    I can't imagine why one would not at least learn basic strategy and play the game giving the house the minimum edge possible, assuming one is not willing or able to commit the time necessary to learn to count... But if someone is going to play by voodoo rules, even then they could do it in silence and not try to get others to follow the "voodoo" way, others that really might not know any better...

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