Backcounting Full Table & Play Behind
  • Is a player allowed to stand behind a full table and backcount and play behind a player when the shoe becomes positive? I understand to select a person has has a complete handle on BS. If permitted it sounds like the perfect way to wong in.

    Thanks,

    Jim
  • jimpenn said:
    Is a player allowed to stand behind a full table and backcount and play behind a player when the shoe becomes positive? I understand to select a person has has a complete handle on BS. If permitted it sounds like the perfect way to wong in.

    Thanks,

    Jim


    Some casinos allow you to jump in and bet with another person and some don't.
  • Thanks Avs21...

    Does the player have to agree to your betting (backlining) ?

    Would a person simply ask a pit supervisor if this is permissable, and if it is would the player your piggy-backing also have to agree?

    My terminology may be incorrect, but I think you understand what I'm saying.

    Ex. If a table is full and I see a perfect BS player, could I just place a bet next to him at a full table? In addition, can the player object to my placing a bet with his bet?

    Thanks....Jim
  • jimpenn said:
    Thanks Avs21...

    Does the player have to agree to your betting (backlining) ?

    Would a person simply ask a pit supervisor if this is permissable, and if it is would the player your piggy-backing also have to agree?

    My terminology may be incorrect, but I think you understand what I'm saying.

    Ex. If a table is full and I see a perfect BS player, could I just place a bet next to him at a full table? In addition, can the player object to my placing a bet with his bet?

    Thanks....Jim



    I'm probably not the best person for specifics on this topic. I have only played at one casino that people were backline betting. All you had to do was get permission from the person playing the same spot. If I were you just ask the person you want to jump in on if it was ok. If they say you aren't allowed to no big deal. I would definetly not ask the Pit Boss though.
  • You can always hand a player some chips and ask him if he would add them to his own bet for you.
  • Renzey said:
    You can always hand a player some chips and ask him if he would add them to his own bet for you.


    Why does that conjure up a mental picture of some Jon Cryder type asking a huge black bartender if he takes credit cards. Guy looks at the cards for a moment,puts them in his pocket and says Sure,I take credit cards as he walks away.
  • But on a shoe it will be really close to an even money game or the house willhave the edge most of the time on a six deck shoe! Even if you could take 10 cards out of the shoe that help you wouldn't have that big of a lead as you would in single deck blackjack. basically single deck is the only really beatable game in the casino. Although they do allow back counting on a shoe it won't do you much good! Count a single deck down and when the count is good bet two spots!
  • Not every casino will allow you to "back-bet". And of those that do, some will let the player sitting at the table choose to allow it or not.

    It is a risky thing to do, as you depend on the player to make the right decision, and if he chooses to split, I have seen arguments between the dealer and back-bettor as to what happens, does the back bettor have to double his bet as well, etc? If you are sure your "player" is playing accurately, and that when splits or doubles happen you want your part of that action, it can work. But arguments can and do happen.

    BTW you can easily beat DD and shoe games with card counting. You simply have to understand the games, the rules, and the bet spread required to beat the games and away you go. You can wong in and out and crush a shoe as easily as a SD game. However, I doubt you are going to do much wonging in a SD game. Most will either not allow mid-shuffle entry or will shuffle when a new player sits down... Of course, most SD games are no longer playable at all, being crapjack 6:5 games instead...
  • learningtocount said:
    But on a shoe it will be really close to an even money game or the house willhave the edge most of the time on a six deck shoe! Even if you could take 10 cards out of the shoe that help you wouldn't have that big of a lead as you would in single deck blackjack. basically single deck is the only really beatable game in the casino. Although they do allow back counting on a shoe it won't do you much good! Count a single deck down and when the count is good bet two spots!


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
  • stainless steel rat said:
    Of course, most SD games are no longer playable at all, being crapjack 6:5 games instead...


    I saw one 3:2 SD game in Vegas. No one was playing it. It's in a sweaty place and they watch over you like a hawk. So even if you sat down and played it you better have a good act to put on.
  • I have not been to vegas since last summer. Found a good SD game (Ro6) at Binion's although I have recently heard that is gone. Good DD at he Plaza but also have heard that is gone too. Found a couple of good SD games in Laughlin however.

    And yes, if you are going to play a real 3:2 SD game you had better be "on your game" as they are counter traps more than anything else, unless you can find the red-chip variety. Binion's last summer had a $5 SD game every time I went there, and it was often possible to play heads-up. I found ways to get a 1-8 spread down at the $5 unit level without any headaches. But I also played a $25 SD game (different casino) and got run off without ever increasing my bet...

    I've told my one back-betting horror story previously, but it is worth retelling:

    Couple of years back I was at a midwest conference and a couple of friends said "let's go check out the local 21 action at XXXX" and I agreed. Got there and it was about as stuffed as one could ever expect to see. They talked me into a shoe game and off we went. At one point, out of the blue, guy leans over my shoulder and says "money plays" and plops down 10 benji's on the table. Dealer looks at me questioningly and I looked puzzled... he asked "do you want to let him play on your hand? you can say no if you want." I thought a second and said "OK by me." We won. Next hand was again a winner (He jumped in on a + count of course.) Next hand he didn't bet, the next hand I got "the tap". We were evicted, accused of playing as a "team" with me being the "spotter" and the stranger being the "big player". Never saw him before in my life. Did chat briefly as we walked out. His comment was "you're pretty good at that, you obviously were counting and playing well enough I thought I would piggy-back. Never thought they'd think we were a team... we had a laugh, and left, and I've never seen or heard from him again. 86'd for team play was pretty funny. You never know what kind of reaction an action will produce until it is too late...

    It wasn't a particularly valid 86, I didn't show them any ID, and I had no player's card I was using. Nor did I sign anything nor have my photo taken except for whatever the eye might have had... but I doubt I would visit there over the normal course of events anyway... It is not a place I would visit for vacation or 21. I much prefer Nevada or Mississippi.
  • learningtocount said:
    But on a shoe it will be really close to an even money game or the house willhave the edge most of the time on a six deck shoe! Even if you could take 10 cards out of the shoe that help you wouldn't have that big of a lead as you would in single deck blackjack. basically single deck is the only really beatable game in the casino. Although they do allow back counting on a shoe it won't do you much good! Count a single deck down and when the count is good bet two spots!



    Sure there is nothing wrong with a decent single deck game, but Learningtocount, you got to expand your thinking.
    Why do all the big counting teams play mainly shoes?

    You deal in a place where the single deck game has a house edge of .44 is it not? You can only double 10 or 11. That game is a poor single deck game and in Vegas you can play a shoe game where the house edge is only .26%. Now some Reno area casinos do have decent single deck with a house edge of .18% but can a green chip player camp out and spread and not get backed off at any of these? To do so he would have to be great. But in vegas you can give up .08%, play that .26% game at green to low black and in many places play for a long period of time, make money and not be shown the door.
    Right now there are no .18% games that can be regularly played at more than red chip levels in your area or Vegas that I would broadcast on a public board. The games most people know of will yell checks play when a green hits the felt and many of them will just shuffle up as soon as you raise your bet. They may be better than the .26% shoe game if everything was equal, but you must take into consideration that in the shoe game you can bet more and play longer. Betting more and playing longer means you make more money if you are playing at an advantage, it is exactly what the casino does.

    ihate17
  • just for the record, if you take a good 6 deck shoe game, and if you could remove 6 five-valued cards, the game would be a + advantage to the player. It would not actually take removing 6 five-valued cards to do this. You could remove 6 cards from 2-6 and make this a +EV game although the 6 fives would be significantly better.


    can we get back to reality here??? These questions can be answered with any good book, or by asking and listening, or by trial and error. Witchcraft, voodoo and superstition are not going to help.

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