hit the fifth card and got 1/2 profit , what house edge cut ?
  • if the casino offer this rule:

    when the palyer hit his fifth card and still not burst

    then he can choose to take half profit and no matter what the dealer finally get

    how much favour this offer can add to the player??

    and in what cases should we take the half profit first

    i think when we get below 17 , we should get this first
    but how about when we get 17 and dealer got a 7-10 face up ??

    or we get 18 the dealer got a 8- 10 face up ,??
  • If you have a 17 and the dealer is even showing just a 2, you are still a big underdog and should take the 50% profit. On an 18 you would be borderline. I might be wrong but I would take it on a 17 vs even a dealer 6, remembering that 17 will only win when 16 wins. I would take it on 18 vs 9,10 and Ace. Though 19 has an advantage against dealer 10, the advantage is not big enough to make up for a 50% profit, so I would take it here also.

  • can anyone tell me what s the house edge drop ?

    someone say it can cut up to 0.7x %

    that sounds can give the game a positive game even they dont permit double for soft card and 9,10
  • beyond14 said:
    can anyone tell me what s the house edge drop ?

    someone say it can cut up to 0.7x %

    that sounds can give the game a positive game even they dont permit double for soft card and 9,10

    ihate17 is on track here. And to further answer your question would be a royal pain. You need to answer the following questions to find out how this affects the house odds:

    (1) what percent of the time will your hand have 5 cards without breaking? This can probably be solved by pencil, but it would be easier to run a quick simulation dealing random hands by the normal rules of BJ (regarding when to hit, double, split or stand) and seeing how often you get a 5-card hand. Now that you know this:

    (2) this turns every such hand into a .5 EV hand, so you only make the decision to take the .5 EV against the dealer when your normal playing EV is less than .5... For example, you have 19, dealer has 8 showing (your 19 is 5 or more cards). you can walk with the .5 EV of the oddball 5-card-charlie rule you described, or you can stay in the game with an EV of .59, which is a better choice. There are a +lot+ of hands you can have that have an EV of less than .5, when you have 5 cards. So those bring your EV up. Unfortunately having 5 cards does not happen as often as we'd like.

    So, a rough cut at this. Taking an infinite deck of cards, and dealing random hands with two starting cards, and hitting by normal rules (ignoring the dealer's up card completely) (I used hit until you reach 17, unless it is a soft 17, which gets hit again). After going through all the combinations for the first card, the second card, the third card (if the first two should be hit), the fourth card (if the first three should be hit) and the fifth card (if the first four should be hit) I enumerated (by a short C program) 21, 877 hands, of which 8102 were valid (non-busted) 5 card hands subject to the .5 EV rule you mentioned. roughly 8 of every 21 hands will go to 5 cards when you choose to hit. But that's not the number we care about just yet. Because we won't hit certain hands if the dealer has a specific up card. So we have to do some more calculations. I'm going to stop here before my head explodes, since there is a lot of work left, and I won't be playing this game making that work useless for me.

    But you get the basic idea. The above numbers would change depending on the dealer's up card, your total, and your EV for standing vs trying for the 5-card hand. 12 vs 6 is normally a stand, but if you have a 4-card 12, the following could happen:

    (1) you stand. Your EV for 12 vs 6 is -.15.

    (2) you hit. Normally, your EV for hitting is -.17

    (3) but in this game, if you have 4 cards, with that 12 up, you have 9 cards that give you an EV of .5 or greater and only 4 that have an EV of -1.0. So you hit since 9 out of 13 cards give you a +.5 or better (the better comes in when you hit the 5th time and get a 9, giving you 21 and there you would _not_ want to take the .5 EV half-payoff since the 21 vs a 6 has a .9 EV.

    That tells you how to do the math. It is going to take some time unless you write or find some simulation software that will let you handle that specific rule. Then you run it for several billion hands and you will learn the right play for every situation that comes up, and you can sum all the EVs to see what it does to the overall house edge. It looks like it would be a significant boost to the player, if it stands. Not as favorable as 5-card charlie, but still a good rule. 5 card charlie adds almost 1.5% to the players side of the advantage equation. This rule is not an automatic winner, but it is probably worth at least .5%, maybe a little more as in that .7% number you originally mentioned.
  • i wonder this rule can really offer so large advantage to players

    but it seems hardly to know when we should take the 50% first in the best way

    once we solve it then that may become a positve game?
  • I don't understand what you mean by 1/2 profit. Why would you want 1\2% profit intstead of the usual 100 profit?
  • learningtocount said:
    I don't understand what you mean by 1/2 profit. Why would you want 1\2% profit intstead of the usual 100 profit?

    The rule is a 5 card, unbusted hand can get an automatic 50% win if the player wishes. So I have a 5 card 12-19 and the dealer shows a 10, I take a $5 win for every $10 I bet. So it is not taking a 50% profit instead of a 100% in most cases. It is taking 50% instead of risking a loss, especially when you are a huge underdog, such as 12-17 vs 10 or Ace. Also a smaller but significant underdog, when you have a 18 vs 10, and even when you are a slight favorite with a 19 vs 10. You know you are an underdog with any stiff, no matter if the dealer is showing a 6, so instead of being an underdog, you are now a winner.

  • This sounds like a variation on "casino surrender" where you can take a "dealer surrender" when you have a 10 showing, and get 1/2 of your bet (and keep your original bet) rather than playing the hand out. Except that casino surrender sucks because it applies to hands where you are a > 50% winner over the house on average.

    But this one sounds interesting as it would appear to make the game a +EV game for the player. Unless there is some other crap like 6:5 which turns it right back into a -EV game once again...
  • i try hundreds hands

    i found the chance of five card not burst is not high

    sometimes it may reach 20 or 21 ,

    so how much + EV is that actually

    i dont think it can become postive

    and how much -EV of only 11 can double ??
  • OK, time has not yet permitted me to finish the 5-card dealer sim. But here is the simplest approach that probably would be _very_ close to what happens with your rule:

    5-card charlie adds +1.46% to the players side of the equation. This is a rule that says you win immediately if you get a non-busted 5 card hand, with the usual exception of when the dealer gets a blackjack.

    your variation cuts the EV of the 5-card charlie rule by 50%, because rather than winning a full bet when you get 5 cards, you only win 1/2 the bet. So a _very_ close approximation to the advantage for this rule should be around +.73%. if you play any game that is less than -.73% off the top, and most any "decent" shoe game is better than that, then the game just became a +EV game for the player.

    Unfortunately, when you see such rules added, they are generally added to offset some detrimental rule like blackjack pays 6:5 which adds about 1.4% to the house advantage and this rule would only get back about 1/2 of that, making the game a losing game still.

    Whatever game you play, go to the wizard's web site (www.wizardofodds.com) and go to the blackjack strategy page and look up the rules (at the bottom of the page) and how they affect the house edge. Then to that number, add +.73 and you should be real close to the house advantage for the game you are playing with the 1/2 5-card charlie rule included...

    hope that helps...
  • who have buy wong's basic blackjack ??

    someone said it has metion this rules

    house edge is 0.6x (no hole card) -0.7x

    and it also show the complete rules

    of when should still hit the fifth card and when should take the half profit first??

    anyone got that book and can show me the complete chart of how to play this game??

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