How to avoid P.B. heat while card counting successfully!!!
  • stainless steel rat said:
    Several tips:

    (1) you can go back. But don't play with the same pit boss if you can remember him/her. If you were read the trespass notice, and you signed an acknowledgement of such or they did it in front of a camera with audio, then stay away. But yours doesn't seem to fit that so I wouldn't worry and would go back if the game is playable next year.

    (2) do _not_ camp out at a table. Keep sessions under an hour per pit. That keeps you under the radar.

    (3) avoid playing across shift changes. This is because the two pit bosses discuss the "transition" and if you are playing when they change, they will discuss your play briefly and you don't want that kind of attention at all, if avoidable.

    There are enough good games in Vegas that you don't have to become a "tombstone" (pit name for a player that sits at a table for hours). The longer you play, the more data you give the pit and the eye. And the more noticable you become. If you don't get noticed, they will have no reason to do a skills check and discover you are counting...


    Ok cool, thanks for your tips. I appreciate your response.

    They didn't read me any tresspass notice nor did they make me sign anything. They just ask me to color up and it came down to basically I wasn't allowed to play BJ, but could play anything else I wanted haha.

    Thanks for pointing out that "tombstone" term. I never really thought twice about that. Good point. But actually, everytime I was in that casino I was in there for less than an hour. Even when I got kicked out I had only been in there for maybe 30 minutes or so. Like I said before, they constantly make a big deal if you have $25 in play.

    HAHA I won't ever forget what that pit crew looks like since it was my first time. Plus they were really ignorant so that makes me remember them more. The same crew was there all week during the day. I should have checked to see what it was like at night. Oh well, I guess I learn from my mistakes. This is about my 3rd year in counting so I guess it takes a while to learn how to play in different types of environments.
  • One more thing I found totally looney toons about this place. 2 days before this happend I was in there with a friend and was watching him teach his girlfriend how to play the basics of the game cause she didn't know how to play. So when he sat down they asked him if he has played in their casino before and he said no. Then they kept asking him "Are you sure?" like 3 more times. Then the floor lady came around again and insisted he played there before and he said no. But she kept shaking her head yes implying he was there. He really was not in there before. What is up with that????!!! Talk about being wacked out of your mind and paranoid. Being asked 6 times or them insisting you were there before when you weren't is totally crazy.
  • I thought it was "headstone". Is there a difference?
  • I've only heard that term used as "tombstone".

    As far as backoffs go, unless you are playing at black and beyond, and spreading like a madman with zero cover, backoffs in vegas ought to be pretty rare. Unless you commit the one fatal sin of playing too much / too long at one place. The longer you play, the more interest you will attract, since casinos want to see long-time players to give them a chance to drain their bank account.

    But attention is our enemy, because once you get their interest, it isn't long to they make the leap and think "OK, got a long-term player here, wonder if he/she is up to something?" And then the eye can play back over your past hour or two or three of play, using software to count the cards as the rounds are entered one by one, and zap, they gotcha, and the next time you walk in, things will "get real busy, real quickly."

    So your goal is to avoid tripping that first warning tripwire. Oddball play, or being obvious with insurance or other well-known index plays like splitting 10's, or playing too long, or giving too much advice to others, or doing anything else that makes you noticable, and you are heading down the slope to a backoff or worse.
  • [QUOTE=stainless steel rat]I've only heard that term used as "tombstone".

    As far as backoffs go, unless you are playing at black and beyond, and spreading like a madman with zero cover, backoffs in vegas ought to be pretty rare.


    I agree with this statement if it concerns most places on the strip but he did not say where he was playing.
    Many casinos downtown have a quick hook and calling out checks play for a green chip sounds like the Western, the sweaty Spaniard (El Cortez) or a couple of other places where the money is sweated.

    I would guess it was downtown but people get tossed from Barbary (barbaric) Coast all the time and other Coast casinos very easily.
  • ihate17 said:
    [QUOTE=stainless steel rat]I've only heard that term used as "tombstone".

    As far as backoffs go, unless you are playing at black and beyond, and spreading like a madman with zero cover, backoffs in vegas ought to be pretty rare.


    I agree with this statement if it concerns most places on the strip but he did not say where he was playing.
    Many casinos downtown have a quick hook and calling out checks play for a green chip sounds like the Western, the sweaty Spaniard (El Cortez) or a couple of other places where the money is sweated.

    I would guess it was downtown but people get tossed from Barbary (barbaric) Coast all the time and other Coast casinos very easily.


    Sorry I didn't mention the casino. I notice on some of the other boards people get disturbed if you name a casino so thats why I didn't give the name.

    HAHA Barbary Coast. That place is hillarious. They sweat $25+ bets too, but the floor people seem a little more laid back than the place I was at, but still BC is a toughie. I couldn't get any good counts at BC because they cut 1 deck off their 2D game so I really couldn't spread enough to put my max bet out there. Penetration really doesn't vary by dealer so there's no breaks. Those dealers looked like they are trained like robots, they won't even speak to people... they stare at you like zombies when it is your turn. I don't even think I ever recall any instances where the dealer will tell you what your cards total. Anyone have any tips for beating 2D with crap penatration?

    El Cortez haha, nah I knew not to go there cause I already know money is sweated there.

    Western... is that the place going east on Flamingo between the Flamingo and Terribles?

    Yeah I agree with the Strip statement too. They got the Strip games pretty orgainzed. You can find good games but you need the bank roll. I would love to play 2D 100 min. BJ in high roller pits on the Strip but I am not rich.
  • Penetration is irrelavant if you have seen 4 5's come off on a single deal than you should be a money favorite of 1 or 2 percent for the next round! you should disregard all the cards that they cut of unless you happen to see one, because they are just as likely to be in the undealt pack as they are to be in the muck. If you really wan't to play it safe when they cut of a lot of cards you can start the count at negative 1. In fact for every deck beyond one you should start your count minus 1. if you had three decks minus 2. Six decks minus 5 to start and so on. On single deck I will usually make my move on the second deal out I have seen a lot of cards on the first deal and it is fresh in my memory if i think the next round is favorable I might go from red to green chips!!!

    On giving advice that will not get you noticed because people give advice all the time to each other. Some of it is poor advice and some of it is good advice! Most of it is basic stragedy advice, other times it is yeah take even money on that blackjack which is usually bad advice!
  • learningtocount said:
    Penetration is irrelavant if you have seen 4 5's come off on a single deal than you should be a money favorite of 1 or 2 percent for the next round! you should disregard all the cards that they cut of unless you happen to see one, because they are just as likely to be in the undealt pack as they are to be in the muck. If you really wan't to play it safe when they cut of a lot of cards you can start the count at negative 1. In fact for every deck beyond one you should start your count minus 1. if you had three decks minus 2. Six decks minus 5 to start and so on. On single deck I will usually make my move on the second deal out I have seen a lot of cards on the first deal and it is fresh in my memory if i think the next round is favorable I might go from red to green chips!!!!


    Alrighty then! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! I'm not even going to bother to debate you on that one.
  • i_dream_of_Jaynie3367 said:
    Alrighty then! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! I'm not even going to bother to debate you on that one.



    But is he really learning anything worthwhile?
  • I was just curious to see how many players have been barred from at least one casino for playing blackjack?

    Judging by the response that this posting has gotten I think that at least I few of you have been barred from at least one casino.

    How many of you players have never been barred but fear getting barred in the future?

    First of all being barred from playing blackjack is not nearly as bad as you see being purtrade in the movies and on television. They won't take you in the backroom and beat you up and if they did couldn't you take them to court and sue them? Or possible have the people that beat you up charged with assualt and get them thrown in jail?
  • learningtocount said:
    I was just curious to see how many players have been barred from at least one casino for playing blackjack?

    Judging by the response that this posting has gotten I think that at least I few of you have been barred from at least one casino.

    How many of you players have never been barred but fear getting barred in the future?

    First of all being barred from playing blackjack is not nearly as bad as you see being purtrade in the movies and on television. They won't take you in the backroom and beat you up and if they did couldn't you take them to court and sue them? Or possible have the people that beat you up charged with assualt and get them thrown in jail?


    Terminology: Generally, if you are forbidden to play blackjack but not tossed from the casino, it is called "backed off", and this has happened to me several times.
    I have been barred (86d), once, read the tresspass act, taken to my room and forced to pack, was threatened with a beating and pushed up against the wall while in my room, was cursed and baited by two goons and a suit while in public areas, escorted off the property.

    There have been several recent Vegas cases where customers illegally detained by casino security and then falsely arrested by the police or gaming because of lies told by casino personel, have won large court settlements. The problem is that in Nevada, the court excused gaming from the suit and gaming should have been sued heavily in the Grosjean/Russo case and the gaming agent probably if not guilty of a crime, definately should have had his job taken. The casinos own gaming, they own the whole state! It is only very recently that some judges have acted independently and actually think Nevada falls under the U.S. constitution. In the past your only hope was a jury and it is still your best bet in either a civil or criminal case.

    Large amounts paid by Caesars, Imperial Palace and a few other places should get their attention and perhaps they will finally train their security people. But I find it amazing that these security people, who leagally are just civilians, have not been arrested for assault or false imprisonment. Read the book "Beat the Players"

    ihate17
  • Did you take some of the chips off of the table like I suggested or are you going to do that now? Have you ever thought of sueing the casino that did this to you?
  • learningtocount said:
    Did you take some of the chips off of the table like I suggested or are you going to do that now? Have you ever thought of sueing the casino that did this to you?


    I was allowed to cash all my chips.
    The casino goons were careful not to lay a finger on me in public areas. The only place where I was touched was when I told them to stay out of my room while I packed and they forced their way in and then their shoving me against the wall, also in my room. No cameras, no witnesses, so no law suit.

    Anyway, I am a big boy, I expect that at times I will be told to leave a casino. I do not give the staff any BS and ask them why. I know why, so I will just leave. There is no reason to get physical or to question my family background through several generations, just point me toward the door.
    I think they got a kick out of thinking that tossing me in the early AM, meant that I had no place to go. First casino I drove to was one where a family member works (I do not play blackjack there) and I immediately had a nice room there.

    ihate17
  • I was 86 from boomtown playing blackjack and I was only up like $40 from my orginal buy-in of $300. That day i think I played perfectly the other days I lost $300 playing good but not perfect stragedy. Do you think that standing on 16 vs a 10 gives an impersion that you are a really stupid player?
  • learningtocount said:
    I was 86 from boomtown playing blackjack and I was only up like $40 from my orginal buy-in of $300. That day i think I played perfectly the other days I lost $300 playing good but not perfect stragedy. Do you think that standing on 16 vs a 10 gives an impersion that you are a really stupid player?


    Standing or hitting on 16 vs 10 is in itself a pretty borderline decision. Some pits and surviellance type believe it is not your hitting or standing that might lead them to think you are a counter but your mixing of the two since most players either just do one or the other. A counter will stay in a positive count and hit in the negative though. If the casino also offers surrender it becomes more complicated.

    Hitting on 16 will give the pit the impression that you do know what you are doing. Staying will give them the impression that you are not that good.

    Getting backed off at Boomtown is not hard to do. Getting backed off while losing or not winning a significant amount is also not rare. Your bet spread is the most common thing that will attract attention unless you just look and act like a counter at the table. Once you have received their attention, if you played long enough, they figured it out and it has nothing to do with winning or losing.

    ihate17
  • ihate17 said:
    Standing or hitting on 16 vs 10 is in itself a pretty borderline decision. Some pits and surviellance type believe it is not your hitting or standing that might lead them to think you are a counter but your mixing of the two since most players either just do one or the other. A counter will stay in a positive count and hit in the negative though. If the casino also offers surrender it becomes more complicated.

    Hitting on 16 will give the pit the impression that you do know what you are doing. Staying will give them the impression that you are not that good.



    ihate17


    I know the pit doesn't think this way, but they should think standing on 16 is a better player. If you dont' vary decisions, but always stand on 16 vs 10. Wouldn't you gain more than just hitting on 16. If your counting you would be making right decision when the money is out there.
  • ihate17 said:
    Standing or hitting on 16 vs 10 is in itself a pretty borderline decision. Some pits and surviellance type believe it is not your hitting or standing that might lead them to think you are a counter but your mixing of the two since most players either just do one or the other. A counter will stay in a positive count and hit in the negative though. If the casino also offers surrender it becomes more complicated.

    Hitting on 16 will give the pit the impression that you do know what you are doing. Staying will give them the impression that you are not that good.

    Getting backed off at Boomtown is not hard to do. Getting backed off while losing or not winning a significant amount is also not rare. Your bet spread is the most common thing that will attract attention unless you just look and act like a counter at the table. Once you have received their attention, if you played long enough, they figured it out and it has nothing to do with winning or losing.

    ihate17



    I would add that standing on 16 is actually a good plan all around. You will be wrong in negative counts, but you have small bets out. you will be right in + counts, when you have a big bet out. So you are consistent. The well-known "counter's basic strategy" has as the correct play as it is adjusted for a TC of +2 rather than approximately zero.
  • stainless steel rat said:
    I would add that standing on 16 is actually a good plan all around. You will be wrong in negative counts, but you have small bets out. you will be right in + counts, when you have a big bet out. So you are consistent. The well-known "counter's basic strategy" has as the correct play as it is adjusted for a TC of +2 rather than approximately zero.


    Actually if surrender is offered than that is the correct play in positive counts, and the one that will be safest in even slightly negative counts. If the count gets to the point where its so negative where hitting 16 vs 10 becomes even remotely a stronger play than you shouldn't be sitting at that table. Unless you're spotting for a team and you will generally be flat betting below your unit anyway, and if not below, than at your minimum unit bet. The things you must use as an advantage player is surrender, if offered, and insurance. There really is never a time where surrendering on the correct hands regardless of the count will hurt your E.V. enough to warrant a change. Especially if you are covering your play. And for most insurance plays you will have a bigger bet out so that can be your excuse for that. It sounds like everybody else's voodoo lines for the moves they make.
  • It is the correct play to hit 16 vs a 10 it improves your chances by an average of 3% but hitting against 7,8,9,or Ace improves your chances of winning by a lot more. I think that the average player who has not read any books or done any real analysis would think that you gain by hitting against a 10 than a 7,8, or 9 because on those cards there are more oppurtunities for me to draw.
  • learningtocount said:
    It is the correct play to hit 16 vs a 10 it improves your chances by an average of 3% but hitting against 7,8,9,or Ace improves your chances of winning by a lot more. I think that the average player who has not read any books or done any real analysis would think that you gain by hitting against a 10 than a 7,8, or 9 because on those cards there are more oppurtunities for me to draw.


    Hitting a 16 vs 10 is only the correct play if:

    They do not offer surrender
    You are not counting and are not aware of a positive count.

    If you are an advantage player you should pick the best games and that includes games that offer surrender. If you are unfortunate enough not to have that choice, then yes hit 16 vs 10 until the count becomes that which gives you the advantage. At this point do not hit, as the shoe is richer in cards that may bust you and although it is still not a strong play it is the better one.
    Rough numbers off the top of my head say you will lose hitting 16 vs 10 about 60% of the time. Whether it be to busting or not drawing enough to beat the dealers hand. With surrender you lose 50%. Thats 10% more money in my pocket, I'd say thats the right move.
  • I have never seen anybody get thrown off a shoe game and I have been working as a dealer for 4 months now. However I have seen people that have been backed down from a single deck game. I myself have been backed down from a single deck game twice but never from a shoe. I think that when you have an edge on a shoe that it is so slight that casino might want to take the risk because they are banking on you every once in a while making a mistake. Plus the times when the casino has the edge on the shoe for the majority of the time but only a very small edge.
  • Only being a dealer for 4 months I'm sure you haven't seen alot yet. I'll repeat from a previous post, if you're playing single deck with 6:5 blackjack, which just about all of them are now, you will very rarely if ever have an advantage. Any 6 deck shoe game would be better for your advantage than that. Also with teams like mine and other higher stakes teams, shoe play is the most lucrative, and we play with significant advantages everytime we play, and thats about 100 hours a month.
    learningtocount you still have a lot to learn, I think you would be better served to ask more questions than making statements. I know you mean well but your information is usually so off that it could really give some the wrong idea. And you should really take your name more seriously and learn to count.
  • However the game restricts what you can double on to 10-11 only. What is your evaluation of this game? This is the most common rule that I have come across on the single deck game.
  • learningtocount said:
    However the game restricts what you can double on to 10-11 only. What is your evaluation of this game? This is the most common rule that I have come across on the single deck game.


    I would really recommend also playing the h17 SD DA2 games in your area. There is decent amount of those games where you live.
  • learningtocount said:
    I have never seen anybody get thrown off a shoe game and I have been working as a dealer for 4 months now. However I have seen people that have been backed down from a single deck game. I myself have been backed down from a single deck game twice but never from a shoe. I think that when you have an edge on a shoe that it is so slight that casino might want to take the risk because they are banking on you every once in a while making a mistake. Plus the times when the casino has the edge on the shoe for the majority of the time but only a very small edge.



    Learningtocount, though you do work in a place where a red chip counter can be backed off, it is probably rare in the shoe game even though the proper spread is much larger than the spread in a single deck game such as yours.
    The house edge on a game like your single deck game is actually higher than the good shoe games in Vegas but the nature of both games are different. On the shoe game, most places with good games ignore a red chip player, places like MGM will not even rate you unless you are a green chipper. Find a $10 table there, spread 12-1 and generally they do not even know you are there. No cover, no loss of EV but it is a shoe. In the shoe game, especially if you play all, there will be times where you are minimum betting hand after hand after hand. Often even when the count goes up, it goes up slowly and you increases in bets might mirror that. Often it is very easy to look like a steamer because as the count rises (more and more small cards coming out) you are losing more often than winning and look like you are chasing your loses.
    Now in a single deck game, a few rounds and it starts over again. So the count goes up or down quickly. You suddenly go from minimum to max bet and then it is over and being shuffled. Also, if a casino is offering a good single or double deck game, that casino is expecting counters to visit and is ready to back them off. Finally, today most casino that offer this game tend to be low roller types that do sweat the money on a red chipper.

    When you start playing heavy green or black to purple or even higher on shoe games, you will find that you do need many types of cover and some of them are sacrifices of some EV in order to continue to play. Also, the places that offer good shoes and can tolerate this level of play, are generally the places with 6/5 single deck and can concentrate their protection against counters in the area where they can get hurt.

    Different games, different approaches for counting but they are all called blackjack.

    ihate17
  • I saw a player on the shoe game spread his bets from the table minimum of $5 to the table maximum of $200 lose the table minimum and win the table maximum and not be backed down on the shoe game. He was usually playing with $25 chips though. Personally I don't have the attention span to count down the shoe game and I don't know if he was counting or not. The single deck game offers an advantage for counters if they lose their count they can get a new deck really quickly. Where as a shoe can take 20 minutes to play out.
  • learningtocount said:
    I saw a player on the shoe game spread his bets from the table minimum of $5 to the table maximum of $200 lose the table minimum and win the table maximum and not be backed down on the shoe game. He was usually playing with $25 chips though. Personally I don't have the attention span to count down the shoe game and I don't know if he was counting or not. The single deck game offers an advantage for counters if they lose their count they can get a new deck really quickly. Where as a shoe can take 20 minutes to play out.



    So the guy went from $5 to $200, but you have no idea if he was counting, hole carding or just plain STEAMING! There are a thousand guys out there who will jump their bets after losing a bunch in a row because a little voice tells them they are due, to every counter you might find. Most likely, if he was playing that h-17, no surrender and horrible penetration shoe game you have in your casino, he was no advantage player.

    Since I believe that well over 90% of those who attempt counting are what I call, long term losing counters or just give it up, those who worry about losing the count during a shoe, probably need a ton more practice before they enter a casino. Anyone can make a mistake but a proficient counter should be able to keep his count and apply the correct bet and indices during a shoe while holding a conversation with the pit, dealer or players, getting their drink from the waitress and watching a few beautiful women pass by. Glance at a table full of cards and adjust his count immediately. Do this and you are ready, sure you might lose a count rarely but it should happen so seldom that it really does not effect your overall results.

    ihate17
  • Well said ihate17, I hope this puts this tired thread to rest, and at the same time educates our young friend.
  • Learningtocount- You should be more careful with what you think and even more so on what you post.

    Two basic strategy players have 16 v 10.... one hits and the other stands, but both made the correct play. Player one made the standard basic play, hit.
    The other saw one extra small card in play and stands. Both played to the limit of their knowledge.

    Two expert counters have 10 v 10....one doubles while the other hits, but both made the correct play. One individual is using a level one count, while the other is using a level three count. Both played to the limits of their knowledge.

    By the way...16 v 10 is the worst hand in BJ and you will lose approx'ly 73-75% of the time, hit or stand.
  • Ray said:


    By the way...16 v 10 is the worst hand in BJ and you will lose approx'ly 73-75% of the time, hit or stand.




    Ray,
    What is the losing percentage for 16 vs 9?
  • I'm not Ray, but it's:

    75-25 if you hit.
    77-23 if you stand.

    Grifter
  • So, there you have it. The TWO worst hands in blackjack.
  • I read in books that pit boss don't give women credit for being good blackjack players. I think that is a bunch of crap because I see women play and there are some decent players. Since there are very few people who play advantage blackjack I don't see a whole lot of women counters out there but I believe that they could count just as well as the men.
  • learningtocount said:
    I read in books that pit boss don't give women credit for being good blackjack players. I think that is a bunch of crap because I see women play and there are some decent players. Since there are very few people who play advantage blackjack I don't see a whole lot of women counters out there but I believe that they could count just as well as the men.


    Of course there have been women backed off and even tresspassed. The best counter I know is a woman and she has been backed off a few times. But, the important thing in your post is that it is still true that most male pits still think along the lines of "girls can't count", which of course is not true. The result of this is that in many cases a female counter has a longevity edge and has to use less cover than a male counter.
    ihate17
  • On a $5-$10 table, when the count gets high just slip a green under a few reds. It will look like you are betting the same amount to the casually observing pit boss. I also like pocketing the green chips when I am doing well. I don't think they have never noticed me doing that.
  • Knox said:
    On a $5-$10 table, when the count gets high just slip a green under a few reds. It will look like you are betting the same amount to the casually observing pit boss. I also like pocketing the green chips when I am doing well. I don't think they have never noticed me doing that.


    I play a very comp friendly style and in small casinos pocketing green chips will piss off the pit crew no end.They may not see you do it but they'll know they are out of action and start hawking the table.If the majority of action on the table is red,you'd be surprised how much attention they pay to their sacred green chips.
  • I wonder if casino give you heat when you insure a bad hand and win the insurance bet. Seeing as it is not normal behavior. If you have a blackjack and the right count to insure a very rare event than I think they over look that insurance bet because so many people take even money it is a normal thing for them. I think passing on insurance when it is not a big bet might be a smart idea. I think that profitable insurance on your big bets is the way to go because I see that people like to protect their big bets.
  • learningtocount said:
    I wonder if casino give you heat when you insure a bad hand and win the insurance bet. Seeing as it is not normal behavior. If you have a blackjack and the right count to insure a very rare event than I think they over look that insurance bet because so many people take even money it is a normal thing for them. I think passing on insurance when it is not a big bet might be a smart idea. I think that profitable insurance on your big bets is the way to go because I see that people like to protect their big bets.


    Insurance and splitting 10's are the two biggest give-aways there are. You have to "prepare" the dealer/pit for an insurance. For example taking even money on a 21 when you have a small bet out, which won't hurt your EV much but will set the stage for "this guy is a sucker"... If you play insurance by the count, trouble will follow unless you are just betting nickles and not spreading...
  • NYB said:
    I play a very comp friendly style and in small casinos pocketing green chips will piss off the pit crew no end.They may not see you do it but they'll know they are out of action and start hawking the table.If the majority of action on the table is red,you'd be surprised how much attention they pay to their sacred green chips.


    Thanks for the tip. I tend to move around enough that I don't see them tracking the outage of greens to me though.
  • stainless steel rat said:
    Insurance and splitting 10's are the two biggest give-aways there are. You have to "prepare" the dealer/pit for an insurance. For example taking even money on a 21 when you have a small bet out, which won't hurt your EV much but will set the stage for "this guy is a sucker"... If you play insurance by the count, trouble will follow unless you are just betting nickles and not spreading...


    Another big give away, high count, you get 16 vs dealer A. First you take insurance and then you surrender. Then if your act is not that good, your next move is to leave.

    ihate17
  • This is one of the plays that you can very the way that you play the hand play it right everytime without knowing the composition of the cards and have no heat from the casino. The reason is because the average player that is playing goes by his gut instink or feeling and sometimes he will hit hard 16 vs a ten and sometimes he will stand. The average pit boss who has studied the game of blackjack has looked at a basic stragedy card that tells you to hit when you have 16 vs a 10 he or she will see the play and assume the person making that play is making a mistake by standing and will eventually end up a loser. But when a good counter looks around and see's that a lot of his 4's and 5's have come out especially on a single deck game he can stay and be perfectly right in doing so. He can also avoid the heat from the pit because their are a lot of losing players who will not hit 16.
  • You are making a classic (and common) mistake...

    The floor person does _not_ watch your play to catch you counting. The first action is that you do something that attracts their attention or suspicion. Varying how you handle 16 vs 10. Insurance. Varying your bets. All you have to do is take some action that makes him/her wonder.

    They will then call upstairs and have your play reviewed by running back through a couple of shoes as recorded on the video. _that_ is where they decide whether or not you are counting, so varying things here and there will not cause any confusion whatsoever, the person reviewing the video (if he is a skilled counter) or the software (there is at least one program commercially available to do this with operator input via speech recognition) will then figure out what you are doing, if you are doing it...

    Your goal is to not do step 1, arousing their suspicion, so that step 2 is not done. When it gets to step 2, you are simply done if you are playing with an edge. If you are not playing with an edge, they won't care at all... And the software or skilled counter (particularly the software) will tell them exactly what your "advantage" is. The final step will then be to stick a fork in you, as you are done there...
  • If you are single, white, male, and young "under 30" you are considered to be the most likely card counter out there!!! I'm just that and that is one of the reasons why I have been barred from playing at two casinos. There is racial profiling on card counters and Asian and black card counters are not concidered to be likely card counters and can get away with it for a lot longer!!! If you are a female card counter it doesn't matter what race you are could card count under the radar for years before you get barred from even one casino especially if you keep your session short like say under an hour!!!
  • One way that you can really avoid the heat is too make a play like double down on hard 12-16. But don't double for all of it do it for just $1 extra dollar. Why do this camo play and not others. Well for one when you make this play the dealer calls out double down on hard 12 or what ever number you choose. The pitboss hears this and stops watching your play for how good you are you will convince them that you are a sucker no matter how much you win. Because this play is dumb and unusual it will resianate in the pitbosses head. Plus you might even be able to vary your bet further without heat. When you raise your bet always play the big hands with mathimatical perfection.

    Please note that the extra $1 you wager will have a negative expectation as far as per money goes but if it buys you 1 1/2 hours with no body looking at you when you win $125 thats cool.
  • LTC,
    That is brilliant. Fred would be proud. Do you think the pit has picked up on this yet?
  • Riiight. Fred would be proud, because FRED ALREADY WROTE THIS EXACT THING IN HIS BOOK.

    EDIT:

    image

    Big bad comments edited out before someone calls the waaaaaambulance.
  • SSR:

    That leads to quite a few interesting scenarios wherein a non-counter can get tapped on the shoulder, simply because the shoe or playing time was advantageous, but the player doesn't profit, or doesn't catch a break. I might argue that the Casino uninvites a player simply because the shoe is good "after further review"... irrespective of name/face of such player. And quite frankly, if your review upstairs is true, then unless the WHOLE table is CLOSED, the ejection does appear arbitrary and capricious. Why single out one player when the whole table has been advantageous? Must be sumthin missin here unwritten.
  • Nickels_n_Bullets said:
    SSR:

    That leads to quite a few interesting scenarios wherein a non-counter can get tapped on the shoulder, simply because the shoe or playing time was advantageous, but the player doesn't profit, or doesn't catch a break. I might argue that the Casino uninvites a player simply because the shoe is good "after further review"... irrespective of name/face of such player. And quite frankly, if your review upstairs is true, then unless the WHOLE table is CLOSED, the ejection does appear arbitrary and capricious. Why single out one player when the whole table has been advantageous? Must be sumthin missin here unwritten.



    While there are places that will toss you for winning (BC comes to mind) for the most part this is a more exact science in terms of a "skills check". The "blackjack survey voice software" won't be fooled by a player that wins in a + count, it looks for correlation between betting level and count, as well as known index plays. Just winning isn't enough although a friend that does this (or did in NO before Katrina anyway) said they got plenty of skill check requests that did not pan out at all, simply because a floor person became suspicious when someone was a big winner.

    If you get the software on your tail, you are most likely done. You just have to avoid reaching that point. Short sessions make skill checks much more difficult and you often get an "inconclusive" result unless you camp out and play long enough to let the software get a good feel for your play...
  • Barrels -- that is a bit harsh. If you're going to insult someone, at least do it in a friendly, joking manner.
  • I agree Funky...comment was direct reflection of poster's ignorance. Webmaster should have deleted it from forum. I do agree a person can just about say anything they desire in forum, but a AP Poster knows how to put to words in the right order.

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