Counters giveback the money when playing other games!!!
  • I would be willing to bet that there are a lot of blackjack counters out there who play other casino games and give their money right back to the casino that they won on the blackjack table. I bet that is why when they back you off of a blackjack game that is why a lot of pit boss will say that you are free to play any other game in the casino.
  • Actually, I think it's winning poker players who give back the money on other casino games. Advantage blackjack players operate on a strictly mathematical strategy. By and large, I think they wouldn't cave in and give back the known mathematical edge to the house by playing say, craps. But poker players win with lots of psychology and may not be real aware of poker's math precepts. Lots of poker winners I know don't know any poker odds. It's all intuitive. Lacking the underlying mathematical orientation and understanding then, these players love to try to conquer the dice table.
  • There are ways to beat just about any game in the casinos, and Advantage Players know that. There have been winning strategies for blackjack, sports betting, poker, video poker, three-card poker, craps, big six, and roulette in publication for years now. With all of that information available I don’t see why an AP would play a negative EV game. If you find a game you enjoy playing, why not learn how to beat it?

    -Sonny-
  • Sonny said:
    There are ways to beat just about any game in the casinos, and Advantage Players know that. There have been winning strategies for blackjack, sports betting, poker, video poker, three-card poker, craps, big six, and roulette in publication for years now. With all of that information available I don’t see why an AP would play a negative EV game. If you find a game you enjoy playing, why not learn how to beat it?

    -Sonny-



    I can answer that. There are many that call themselves "advantage players", but are really nothing more than compulsive gamblers or just plain gamblers that know how to (maybe) beat 21, but they play other games "just because". Once played a 3CP game where the dealer took each set of 3 cards from the shuffler and every last time, if you were sitting at the right spot, you saw the bottom card for each hand plus the dealer. Female family member saw me playing and from that point on, she played the game wherever she came across it, thinking it could be beat because she had seen me beat up on this one (I don't remember precisely but it was either on the MS coast or in Vegas, but it was several years ago).

    I don't touch slots, I don't clock wheels looking for biases, but I've always been willing/able to watch games and think about what would "turn the table to my favor"... And I never sit down just to play unless it is for a specific reason (say a family member wants company). And when that happens I always try to steer us to a 21 table which can be beaten... I can only say that I don't randomly go around playing the carny games that are offered, when the 21 tables are crowded or unplayable. And I doubt any serious player (whether pro or casual) would do that either. The ones that do simply don't deserve the "AP" label.

    If one looks, you never know what you will find. Summer before last, in Laughlin, there was a decent SD game with a side bet on whether the dealer would get a 21 or not. It was supposed to only be playable on the first round after the shuffle, but a new dealer didn't know that. Playing to R07 that day, the side-bet was occasionally profitable since I could pull it off in high counts where there were aces left to play. Those kinds of things happen, it's our job to find 'em...
  • I would never play any other game except for Blackjack and now I am learning VP. If a CC knows what they are doing they are not going to go play other games unless they know how to beat other casino games.
  • avs21 said:
    I would never play any other game except for Blackjack and now I am learning VP. If a CC knows what they are doing they are not going to go play other games unless they know how to beat other casino games.


    My only quibble with your comment is that I would replace CC with AP. I have known several decent card counters that would play craps and roulette regularly. No real AP would ever touch a game unless he had an edge of some sort to play with. But a CC could _still_ be a compulsive gambler that just learned to count as part of the compulsion...
  • The few poker pros I know have no concept of money.They are filthy rich one day and broke the next.Todays poker pros remind me a lot of the 80s mob guys.A cash conduit. Money flows thru them but never sticks to them.
    Now,I'm talking about the ones I know,mid-level pros,not the guys on the top whom Ihave no idea about.
  • It is widely known that the game of blackjack offers the best opportunity for players to gain a slight advantage over the house. I believe that only video poker comes close to favoring the player, and that only if proper strategy is used. My question is about live poker. Can a good table poker player also have an expectation to beat the house? Is there a built in house advantage in poker, as in all other games?
  • chxplay said:
    It is widely known that the game of blackjack offers the best opportunity for players to gain a slight advantage over the house. I believe that only video poker comes close to favoring the player, and that only if proper strategy is used. My question is about live poker. Can a good table poker player also have an expectation to beat the house? Is there a built in house advantage in poker, as in all other games?



    You need to go to blackjackforumonline. Arnold has written several good articles that are posted there about this very subject. Bottom line is that the poker rooms offer far more advantage to the skilled player than blackjack ever will..
  • A poker pro playing against a bunch of day-trippers has an edge that card counters can only dream about.
  • With all due respect, I'd like to start just by saying that the "knowing who I am" discussion was beginning to make me uncomfortable, and that was the reason I asked for the break. Thanks to all.

    As for poker -- in round numbers, a fully skilled advantage blackjack player can have an edge over the house of roughly 1%. Poker on the other hand, due to the two way arbitrary decisions made across the table, can give the better player an edge much higher -- at times!
    There is a built in disadvantage (or overhead) for the player in casino poker, and it is the rake. The rake however, remains fairly flat as the stakes increase. At lower stakes games ($10/$20 and below) the rake is a huge factor. Most pots will be raked about $4 each. If you're dealt the average of about 30 hands per hour and win your fair share of 3 pots per hour, you're paying $12 per hour to play. If those 3 pots were average in size for the stakes (around $160 at $10/$20 and $80 at $5/$10), your "vig" is 2.5% to 5%. You need to play that percentage better than your opponents to break even (not including tips).

    As the stakes rise though, the rake goes up only slightly in comparison. At $50/$100 stakes, you might pay $18 per hour to rent your seat and there will be no rake. Now, where you needed to beat the opposition out of 1.2 bets per hour to break even at $5/$10 stakes, you need to win only .18 bets per hour from them at $50/$100. The downside is, the opposition will be a lot stiffer at $50/$100 than at $5/$10.

    One really overlooked thing about winning at poker is; it's not how good you CAN play, but how good you DO play. In blackjack, your game is mathematically pre-cookbooked entirely. You already know what you're going to do in every conceivable situation -- and comparatively speaking there aren't that many. In poker however, you're constantly making subjective on-the-spot evaluations of the situation. These evaluations are highly dependent upon the basic playing style of your opponent, whether he's on his game or "steaming" and what he thinks you have. These are psychological complexities that don't exist in blackjack and because of them, nobody ever plays poker mistake-free; probably not even close. On some days you simply play better than on others. And some players, the more disciplined ones, play closer to their "A" game every day than others.

    One of the toughest things to do in a poker hand is to make the conscious decision that your very good hand is no good and you must fold it now -- particularly if it's a case where your reading skills have revealed that a bad player played a bad hand and has just run you down with it. Some days, you have the perception to see what is and act on it promptly, and other days you tell yourself it may not be true. Perception and self-honesty in poker are paramount. Among poker peers, that'll probably be the determining factor in whether your year was positive or negative. As for the juicy soft players who occasionally sit down and play, well that's just gravy for everyone, but they're not always there.
  • IMO the most natural migration from one casino game to another is blackjack and poker, but not always. The poker "natural" described by Renzey may be a very poor blackjack player because he may lack the math skills for blackjack.
    The reverse may be true for the BJ player who does not have intutive and/or psychology skills. Those who have all the skills can do well in both because poker does not have such a long term dependency like BJ.

    I have my doubts about a BJ player adding VP to his bag of tricks because VP, unlike real poker, may have a much longer time consideration. Just how much time can one spend in a casino?

    As for the wheel, how many casinos will let me in there with a couple of lasers, a strob and a data entry assistant? More like none..................

    Craps is much like the wheel and we all know the results of betting methods
    short of cheating..............
  • Ray said:

    As for the wheel, how many casinos will let me in there with a couple of lasers, a strob and a data entry assistant? More like none..................

    Craps is much like the wheel and we all know the results of betting methods
    short of cheating..............


    I don't think anyone meant to imply cheating. As APs we're able to beat these games legally. In fact, we pride ourselves on it! There are many ways to beat craps and roulette without using illegal devices. They are not as reliable as BJ (IMHO), but they can be done.

    -Sonny-
  • Sonny-I'll have to take your word on beating craps and roulette because I don't spend any time in an attempt.

    However, it is a fact that given the right circumstance any casino game can be had and here is a good example of one such rare occasion: One of the four Indiana casinos that I play lost a half million on one slot machine. The exact details never came out, but it seems that a malfunction (programming or hardware) was paying some high amount on any win. Like 20:1 or some other amount.

    When I read the article, my first thoughts were that they may need to take a long look at their audit trails and programming staff. You would think that red flags would have alerted these folks.
  • Ray said:
    One of the four Indiana casinos that I play lost a half million on one slot machine. The exact details never came out, but it seems that a malfunction (programming or hardware) was paying some high amount on any win. Like 20:1 or some other amount.


    I remember that article. They lost something like $500k in two days from that mistake. I posted it on another site a few months ago:

    http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2729

    There was also a similar article here:

    http://www.courierpress.com/news/2006/aug/05/loose-slots-machine-malfunction-costs-casino/

    Those people didn't know it at the time but they were all Advantage Players! Similar things have happened in Las Vegas and California (and probably everywhere!) as well. You just have to keep your eyes open and evaluate all opportunities.

    Casinos use profitable promotions all the time. Does anyone remember when Binion's used to pay 2:1 on blackjacks every Christmas? What about the 3:1 suited BJs at Terribles? Or Ken Smith's $100k win (http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2945). And let's not forget the infamous "Free Ride" promotion from the Klondike (peace be with it - http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/surpriseparty.html).

    -Sonny-
  • It's likely that this error was made because of and during a major upgrade that Caesars made just a few months back. New machines, new BJ felt for side bets, very modern ASM's and liquid crystal table limit displays on a local lan.

    Naturally, they boosted table limits on all floors, but the games remain very good.
  • SSR is the real deal. "Poker rooms offer far more advantage to the skilled player than blackjack ever will." Just ask Grifter....

    The game has changed the last ten years, but eventually it will return to be a playable game within the next ten or it will be history.
  • Ray said:
    IMO the most natural migration from one casino game to another is blackjack and poker, but not always. The poker "natural" described by Renzey may be a very poor blackjack player because he may lack the math skills for blackjack.
    The reverse may be true for the BJ player who does not have intutive and/or psychology skills. Those who have all the skills can do well in both because poker does not have such a long term dependency like BJ.

    I have my doubts about a BJ player adding VP to his bag of tricks because VP, unlike real poker, may have a much longer time consideration. Just how much time can one spend in a casino?

    As for the wheel, how many casinos will let me in there with a couple of lasers, a strob and a data entry assistant? More like none..................

    Craps is much like the wheel and we all know the results of betting methods
    short of cheating..............


    Ray:

    While I don't play VP myself, I have read the exploits of several "pros" that play VP. Since there are still VP machines that have a player advantage with perfect playing strategy, they can and do beat up on these machines when the opportunity arises... The problem is that the game has a very high variance, since your edge comes in those rare hands that you will eventually hit to pull ahead, but you stay behind most of the time until you get those once in 40,000 hand royal flushes and the like... Never been something I was interested in however as finding full-pay VP games is not easy and takes a lot of time.

    But then finding good 21 games also takes a lot of time, so...
  • countfast said:

    The game has changed the last ten years, but eventually it will return to be a playable game within the next ten or it will be history.


    There’s no need to wait for it to become profitable again. The game has been profitable since the beginning and is only getting more so!

    The game certainly has changed over the past decade, and many smart people have gotten rich from those changes. Let’s take a look back at the past few decades of the game:

    -Multi-deck games gave rise to techniques like shuffle tracking, sequencing, cutting/steering, backcounting and team play, all of which are much stronger than straight counting.

    -CSMs were invented, beaten (BADLY!), redesigned, and beaten again.

    -Side bets like Over/Under 13, Lucky Ladies, Royal Twenties and Royal Match have all been severely exploited by smart players. Several of those bets have disappeared as a result, but more are popping up everyday.

    -Variations like Blackjack Switch, SuperFun 21, Double Exposure and Multi-Action BJ have all filled the pockets of smart players.

    -Casino promotions like Free Ride, Monopoly 21, BJ matchplay coupons, free ace coupons, special payouts (BJ pays 2:1, 3:1 suited BJs, Five Card Charlie, etc.) progressive jackpots, and generous comp policies have all been fully exploited.

    -Faster computers and stronger software have aided in the development of very simple and very powerful systems. These new systems make advantage play available to just about anyone who wants to learn. The days of level-3 systems with ace side counts, half-deck TC estimations and 180 indices are long gone. These days you just need Hi-Lo with the Illustrious 18 or KO Preferred to get most of the power of the advanced systems.

    -The internet has brought together countless professional-level players (and billions of hacks, but they’re easy to spot) to share experiences and techniques. There is also a wealth of good knowledge and information published on the internet as well as most public libraries. Learning how to play BJ is easier than ever, especially now that online mentoring and training is available.

    Yup, the game sure has changed and it is more profitable now than it has ever been. Plus, thanks to court cases by Michael Russo, James Grosjean, Mark Estes and others, you won’t get your knees broken for winning!

    -Sonny-
  • SSR- My point: Can you gain an edge in BJ and VP....yes, of course you can,
    but can you find enough playing time to do both? From a practical point of view, I have to think, for most of us, that would be difficult..

    Real poker is a different story. In fact, if casinos offered pure cut throat five card stud, that would be my preference over BJ or any other game.

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