Need some help from the Pros
  • Hey All, Im new to the forum. Ive been reading up and find it to be a great group here. Anyway i live in NY and was planning on taking a trip to AC sometime in December. But i tried to find out what types of rules some of the casinos have and i cant find anything specific. Anyone know the exact rules for say the Borgata or Tropicana (and other other casinos you might recommend over those 2) Thanks for the help in advance.

    ALSO, Can someone give me a quick description of "hole carding". was always curious about what it meant.
  • MrMan said:
    Hey All, Im new to the forum. Ive been reading up and find it to be a great group here. Anyway i live in NY and was planning on taking a trip to AC sometime in December. But i tried to find out what types of rules some of the casinos have and i cant find anything specific. Anyone know the exact rules for say the Borgata or Tropicana (and other other casinos you might recommend over those 2) Thanks for the help in advance.

    ALSO, Can someone give me a quick description of "hole carding". was always curious about what it meant.


    The rules basically suck, so you are going to be playing poor games. I've not been there in a long time (for that very reason) but you will see lots of 8d shoes with poor penetration.

    "hole carding" is what you do when you can somehow catch a peek at the dealer's hole card so that you know what his starting hand is. If he has a 6 up and a 10 down, you really have a good chance of beating him, and I'd double more hands than usual (5-3 for example). The problem with doubling 5-3 vs a 6 is that 4/13 hands he will have a 10, but there are other really bad possibilities he could have, including a 4 or 5, which makes him a heavy favorite to beat your 5-3 + 1 card.

    It is not likely in shoes, but in pitch games, a sloppy dealer might reveal his first card as it is dealt, and if so, your advantage rises. But it is not very common overall as the better dealers are put on the pitch games to avoid that problem.

    I've seen more of this in 3 card poker since the dealer takes the 3-card piles from the automatic shuffler and hands them out. And if he is sloppy you can catch his bottom card as well. And you can use that information to erase the house edge completely and play with an advantage in that game. They used to be pretty careless as nobody considered how important knowing one of the 3 cards the dealer holds is. "basic strategy" is to bet on Q-6-4 or better. But if you saw an A, you would not bet. If you saw a 2, the dealer's chance of beating you just went down significantly and you would bet on worse than Q64 hands. Now most all dealers have been taught to be very careful about flashing the bottom cards.
  • so i guess no one counts cards in AC then.
  • You might purchase CBJN (current blackjack news) at bj21.com It will give you a bunch of information on every blackjack game in the U.S. and Canada.

    If you can find good penetration and combine it with the few 6 deck shoes available and even with the 8 deckers, you can still get an edge and make some money but it is work. At the first sign of you possibly being a counter you might also find the shoe cut in half. Not a friendly place.
    Try Borgata, they are supposed to have a little better game.

    ihate17
  • MrMan said:
    so i guess no one counts cards in AC then.


    There are some counters there. Just not as many as in other places.
  • thanks for the info.

    ihate17....when you say "it is work" can u expand on your reasoning why?
    Do you prefer single decks over all others?
  • MrMan said:
    thanks for the info.

    ihate17....when you say "it is work" can u expand on your reasoning why?
    Do you prefer single decks over all others?


    The problem is, with a deep shoe and not-so-good penetration, positive counts are very infrequent. Just compare the count variation in a single-deck game (where the count is + for one hand, - for the next) to that of a shoe. The shoe count is much more static and you don't see + counts nearly as frequently. With an 8D shoe, you see them even less. You end up counting more and playing less (if you back-count) or else you have to use a very large spread.

    If you buy a program like CVCX from qfit, you can see what happens in the various games easier. But if you play 3 shoes without a + count, that's a _lot_ of play. 3 shuffles in a SD game is only 12 rounds heads up (assuming you play the optimal two hands for max penetration in a Ro6 game.) 8D shoes are _BORING_ for that reason. :) And many places use 8D shoes but deal like they are 6D shoes, cutting off an extra 2 decks. Those games are essentially unplayable due to horrible penetration. I've seen this in Indian casinos in MS.
  • A.C. can be a tough place to count if you are a beginner. But as previously suggested the Borgata offers a pretty good game. Some low table minimums for lesser bankrolls, all 6 deck shoes, double any 2, double after split, and you can split any pair, there is no late surrender however, and no resplitting of aces. They primarily use auto shufflers (not continuous shufflers) so if you're counting you have the advantage of getting more hands in. If and when you get to the point you want to use more advanced techniques, there will be a few more of the A.C. casinos that will be advantageous to play.
    Also if you have a significant bankroll that allows you to play $50 units or higher, almost all the casinos have 6 deck games available with similar rules as that of the Borgata. There are a lot more counters and advantage players in A.C. than people think, its just that only the very selective and very good ones make money there.
  • MrMan said:
    thanks for the info.

    ihate17....when you say "it is work" can u expand on your reasoning why?
    Do you prefer single decks over all others?


    There are very few single deck games that I can play. My bet level is too high for downtown Vegas. I play double deck and 6 deck shoes but in the shoes, as related to SSR's post, I am very picky unless there are other reasons. Penetration needs to be 1.5 decks but preferably less. I keep a list of dealers who tend to cut 1 deck or less on shoe games. They exist, they basically do not like to shuffle too much and I do not think most of them even know this. So a S-17 6 deck shoe, with all the usual good rules, and less than a deck cut off, to me based on my bet level and what is available, is the best game. There are a few double deck games with decent rules and 75% penetration and those also are on the top of my list.
    In AC, there are less 6 deck shoes, so the chance of finding a dealer giving decent penetration in a poor penetration enviroment is also hard work. Or playing an 8 decker with poor penetration and trying to eek out a profit, is often just not worth my time. Then you ramp your bet a few times and you might have 50% penetration, especially on black chip tables.

    ihate17
  • i see what ur saying ihate17.

    Another quick one:

    From what I can gather you would need at least a $3000 BR to start with a 5-50 spread. Is that correct? I commonly see people say and research prove that the profit is only yielded in the long run, which is why many beginning counters get scared off by immediate big losses or because they loose dedication and stamina. How true is this? For something that is very hard to keep up with and learn and put into practice it seems counting isnt much better than having a real job (if in fact u counted full time). Yes im sure the lifestyle is nice with comps and all those half naked girls running around, but to someone who knows he can learn this and learn well (over the course of a few months) is it really worth the time? It seems you need alot of game time of which will be hard for me since a) i live in NY with AC seemingly a bad place to count per this thread; b) i dont have a very large bankroll; c) i have a full time job so my time at table would be limited.

    What do you think?
  • MrMan said:
    i see what ur saying ihate17.

    Another quick one:

    From what I can gather you would need at least a $3000 BR to start with a 5-50 spread. Is that correct? I commonly see people say and research prove that the profit is only yielded in the long run, which is why many beginning counters get scared off by immediate big losses or because they loose dedication and stamina. How true is this? For something that is very hard to keep up with and learn and put into practice it seems counting isnt much better than having a real job (if in fact u counted full time). Yes im sure the lifestyle is nice with comps and all those half naked girls running around, but to someone who knows he can learn this and learn well (over the course of a few months) is it really worth the time? It seems you need alot of game time of which will be hard for me since a) i live in NY with AC seemingly a bad place to count per this thread; b) i dont have a very large bankroll; c) i have a full time job so my time at table would be limited.

    What do you think?


    You can't answer that question very easily. But to get an _accurate_ answer, you need a program like CVCX from qfit. Then you supply the exact game rules, the exact bet spread/ramp you want to use (or let CVCX tell you the optimal bet spread/ramp) and then you can enter your starting bankroll and it will tell you your risk of ruin for that betting level using that bankroll to start with. The better the rules, the less bankroll you need for the same RoR. The better the penetration, the lower the RoR. So it is a complicated question and this is the place where you do _not_ want to just make assumptions, you really need to _know_. Otherwise your RoR can approach 100% and you have no idea that you have no chance to beat the game.

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