OPP Count
  • Tried out the OPP Count on a recent trip. It was very, very easy to use. By the second time I used it, it was very easy to chat incessantly with other players and keep an accurate count. Won money using it as well using a 1-4 spread.

    It seems to me, though, that the OPP count should be modified slightly depending on where you are sitting at the table. The whole idea of the OPP is there are a certain number of tens in each players hand. However, if you are sitting in first position, when you draw your first card, only two of the cards of the other hands will have been shown. On the other hand if you are in last position, all of the cards will have been played.

    Thus, when there are seven players, if you are in first position, you are supposed to substract seven before the cards are dealt. If you are in last position, you are still supposed to subtract seven, but tons more cards will have been played by the time it gets to you (and more tens).

    Maybe this only matters on the first round of play, though -- so perhaps it isn't significant. But I would think modifying OPP such that with seven people playing you subtract 7 in the last position, 6 in the 6th, 5 in the 5th, etc, and on down the line; but then subtact 7 each time for subsequetnt hands would be more accurate. Thoughts?

    As an aside, I had 15 at one point and took insurance when the OPP count was a whopping 23! Unfortunately I lost the insurance bet. That didn't worry me. What ticked me off, though, was the dealer who then gave me a long lecture on buying insurance only when you have a winning hand. I wanted to tell him that couting cards if a lot better method of determining insurance bets, but held my tongue.
  • Snyder has an article on this subject on his website. He said it does not make a difference where you sit. He supports the system and said it's better than not having a system at all. I think his name is Snyder or maybe that's his book name. O well, that settles that.
  • countfast said:
    Snyder has an article on this subject on his website...He supports the system and said it's better than not having a system at all. I think his name is Snyder or maybe that's his book name. O well, that settles that.


    Unfortunately that does not settle anything...You don't even know the guy's name, any details about the article or the system, or even a link. Saying that "It's better than nothing" is really no help at all!

    Yes, his name is Arnold Snyder and he has been at the forefront of BJ in print (books, pamphlets and newsletters), the web and video for decades now. Here is a link to his article:

    http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/Easy_OPP_Card_Counting_System.htm

    Unfortnuately, independent analysis has shown that the original simulations were not very subjective. According to other sources the OPP/Speed Count only retains about 35-60% of Hi-LO or KO depending on the game conditions. Here are the links:

    http://www.advantageplayer.com/blackjack/forums/bj-main/webbbs.cgi?read=18595

    "OPP + CBS would capture 16.61/40.69*100 = 40.82% from KO
    and 16.61/40.43*100 = 41.08% from Hi-Lo.

    Using more players makes OPP/SC's SCORE to deteriorate more than the other systems do."


    http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=3501&page=2

    "GT advertises that it is "70 to 95 percent of the positive edge of professional systems." (I pasted that from the GT site.) In fact it SCOREs about 35% of KO."

    Hopefully that is a bit more helpful...

    -Sonny-
  • That is quite helpful.

    Has Arnold Snyder responded to these sims? Of course he admits that OPP is not as good as KO or Hi-Low, etc. But I think his numbers are a bit better. Maybe it is because he ran them using heads up?

    I repeat, though, that OPP was extremely easy to use. I had tried Hi-Low before (I play casinos only about once a year so don't practice that much). I could do it, but it took so much concentration that it made blackjack less fun. Maybe after I practiced a lot more it would become more second nature; but with OPP it was so easy to have a great time and keep an accurate count.

    The other thread also mentioned KO rookie and a book that had this in it. Anyone know what that book is?

    Has Fred Renzy or the likes commented on OPP?

    Thanks!
  • FunkyChicken said:Maybe after I practiced a lot more it would become more second nature; but with OPP it was so easy to have a great time and keep an accurate count.

    With enough practice it will become instinctual. You almost won’t even notice your brain keeping the running count as you are playing and betting. However, it does take a great deal of practice to become good enough to count in a casino and still enjoy yourself.

    In my opinion a system like KO will be much easier than OPP. With OPP you are using an unbalanced count which makes it difficult to check your accuracy as you practice (not able to count down a deck like with other systems). Also, it has you counting the number of hands in play and adjusting your RC by as much as -6 or -7. With KO you only adjust your RC by -1 and +1 without worrying about how many people are playing. You are playing much more accurately and, in my opinion, much more easily.

    In the end the choice is yours. There is no “right” or “wrong” system here. Both systems should give you an edge. Since you only play about once a year you probably aren’t concerned with how much of an edge you’re getting, just that you have a chance to win every now and then. A stronger system will give you a better chance of winning in the short run and will win you more money in the long run but it may also take the fun out of the game for you. I would suggest that you try them both and use whichever one seems easier to you.

    You can find the KO system in "Knock-Out Blackjack" by Ken Fuchs & Olaf Vancura.

    -Sonny-
  • "you don't even know the guy's name..." ya ya ya Do you know Arnold Snyder's real name Sonny? Being a two month member I'll bet there is quite a few things you don't know.
  • I know that I wish this site had an "ignore this poster" button.
  • Chill out, pay attention and you just may learn something about this game and distractions you keep talking about. No different than at the table.
  • countfast said:
    Being a two month member I'll bet there is quite a few things you don't know.


    First of all, your grammar is terrible: "...I'll bet there are quite a few things..."

    Secondly:

    Sonny image
    Member

    Join Date: Aug 2004

    I've been here for over two years! You can't get anything right even when the information is right in front of your face. Man, you are a riot! =)

    You used to bother me but now you just make me laugh all the time. You're sort of the "comic relief" from useful information on this site. I'll let you get back to your $10-$35 spread using OPP. Hopefully I didn't ruin your morning tea party by the beach. You're priceless. =)

    -Sonny-
  • NYB said:
    I know that I wish this site had an "ignore this poster" button.


    It does! There's a little scroll button on the right side of your browser. Whenever you see a post by an "offensive" member just click on the button and scroll down about 3-5 posts (that persons post, plus a few responses explaining exactly how they are wrong about everything, then a few inflamatory responses from the original person). =)

    Better yet, there should be a "Delete Post" button that removes any post that does not contain any information about BJ or is insulting to other players/authors. Perhaps some sort of ISP blocker for repeat offenders...

    -Sonny-
  • Post Deleted - No BJ Content........Meaningless horse puckey.........Grifter
  • Post Deleted - No BJ Content........Meaningless horse puckey.........Grifter
  • Post Deleted - No BJ Content........Meaningless horse puckey.........Grifter
  • Post Deleted - No BJ Content........Meaningless horse puckey.........Grifter
  • Sheesh -- ask a short question about the OPP count and watch post after post of insult-trading. Is this what this board has come to? It used to be we just made fun of the progressive players.
  • Post Deleted - No BJ Content........Meaningless horse puckey.........Grifter
  • Post Deleted - No BJ Content........Meaningless horse puckey.........Grifter
  • Post Deleted - No BJ Content........Meaningless horse puckey.........Grifter
  • Post Deleted - No BJ Content........More of the same, my bad.........Sonny

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!