cover play question for Mr. Renzey
  • Was wondering if you would care to expound further on some comments I thought I read of yours on playing wrong hands as cover and the minimal loss towards your EV this causes. Thanks for all the great threads and helping us rookies along the way !
  • The thing of it is, if you play like a straightforward counter, before long you'll be made as a counter. Of course it'll happen a lot quicker at a $50 table than at a $10.

    So based on my past dilemmas, I believe you need to concede a little EV to keep your welcome mat in place. The key is to make mistakes which look horrible but in truth are practically neglegible. In that way, you get the most advertising bang for the buck. My book has a five page camouflage/cover section which contains a chart called "the Nifty 15". It's not God's gift to card counters, but it does outline 15 attention-getting camo plays, most of which are very inexpensive to make. The chart also tells you the absolute dollar penalty to a $25 bet and the overall percentage penalty in EV if you made this play every time it came up when you had a 1 unit bet out there.

    Assumptions are that you're playing a six deck shoe and back out if the true count (count per deck) reaches -2 or below.

    A few examples would be that doubling with 9 vs 2 everytime you had a 1 unit bet up would cost you 25 cents per hand if your 1 unit bet was $25, and it would take .001% off your overall EV.

    Doubling down for an extra $1 with 12 against a 2 would cost 25 cents per hand and take .003% off your EV.

    Splitting 3/3 vs 8 would cost 25 cents and take .0002 off your EV.

    Insuring your 20 for $5 would cost 45 cents and take .006% off your EV.

    If you made those four plays at every opportunity on your 1 unit bets, your EV will suffer by .012% In other words, a $50 per hour EV would become $49.40 per hour.

    Yet, you shouldn't make these plays every time, but rather at times of high visibility, i.e., early in your playing session, or when the floorperson is hanging around, or after you've made a few larger bets, or after you've won a flurry of hands.

    Realizing that the need to make a camo play may arise right now, you often can't wait to be dealt one of these four hands. So the chart contains 15 hands in all, including standing on A/7 vs Ace;; doubling A/7 vs 2;; doubling 8 vs 6;; splitting 9/9 vs Ace, etc. One other emergency camo play you'll get to make very often is to take Insurance with any hand for one tenth of your bet. That'll cost a $30 bet 22 cents. Do that four or five times in a session and you've blown $1 of your advertising budget.
  • Thankyou for the great reply. Would much rather cut into my ev at such a minimal cost, than risk being made as a straight counter. Really makes sense.
    How often, as far as sessions go, would you say you use these ? Every session, 1 out of 3 ? Thnx again for your quick reply.
  • My sessions tend to be about 2 hours long and I probably make about 8 cover plays per session. Typically, these would be taking Insurance for $2.50 or $5 about three times. Doubling down on 12 vs 2, 3 or 4 for $2.50 or $5 about twice, maybe doubling on 8 vs 6 with a $50 bet once, perhaps splitting 2/2, 3/3 or 7/7 vs 8 on a $50 bet once and standing with A/7 vs Ace once. These eight plays will cost me on average about $5.

    Also during that time I'll usually get in probably two hand interaction plays, like dumping off half of 7/7 vs 3 for $50 and buying half of a double on 11 vs 10 for maybe $75. These two plays will earn/save me a total average of $9.
  • Mr. Renzey

    Have you ever used a moderate progression as cover ? For example with KO preffered, as the count climbs towards the key count, you go 1-2-3 positive progression, leading into your big bets ? Or would this backfire and raise too much suspicion, or wipe out your EV ? I think I read a thread on blackjackinfo
    about a player using this with some success; success meaning effective cover. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.
  • golfnut101 said:
    Was wondering if you would care to expound further on some comments I thought I read of yours on playing wrong hands as cover and the minimal loss towards your EV this causes. Thanks for all the great threads and helping us rookies along the way !

    Heck man, you don’t need cover play! - If you use index for playing decisions you don’t need any extra cover, the index is your cover. Problem is, don’t try to re-invent the wheel, also don’t try to play half-ass as if they are looking after your action.
    On your $ action, should never use cover at all. If and when you get to bet in “black” chips and if you manage to win consistently only than can use some cheap cover. Try to play at your bets at all times. Playing well and betting according to the count will give you the confidence for the future in your career. Try to become a wining player. If you don’t play every day in and out for a living, you don’t need cover plays. If you really think that your action is so important $$ then try to use the very common idiotic plays that are not that expensive like: even money on any BJ that has one/two chip bet and stand on any A7 vs. 9,T,A. But for God sake, don’t double down on hard 12 because this is simply incorrect. This is not my opinion, this is simply incorrect and is silly and wrong. The only thing that matters when you are playing is for you to play well.

    You have to tell yourself, .. I’m here to play well, and at the end of the day be proud of the way you've been playing. That’s really all there is to say.
  • Golfnut -- When in neutral territoty, I'll "chip-up" on consecutive wins from 1 to 1.5 to 2 units, but then back down to 1 in an effort to appear to be betting somewhat progressively. I'll do the same in positive counts with multiple units, such as going from 6 units to 8 units to 10 units on consecutive wins even if the count did not rise, so long as it remains substantially positive.

    Alex -- Some food for thought. If you have a $50 bet up there and stand with A/7 vs 9 for cover, it costs you an average of $4.50. If you stand with A/7 vs 10, it costs $2.
    But if you double down for an extra $2.50 with 12 vs. 2 or 3, it costs 65 cents. Doubling for $5 costs $1.25
    Taking random Insurance cover for $2.50 costs 19 cents. Taking it for $5 costs 37 cents.
  • Renzey said:
    ...., Alex -- Some food for thought. If you have a $50 bet up there and stand with A/7 vs 9 for cover, it costs you an average of $4.50. If you stand with A/7 vs 10, it costs $2.
    But if you double down for an extra $2.50 with 12 vs. 2 or 3, it costs 65 cents. Doubling for $5 costs $1.25
    Taking random Insurance cover for $2.50 costs 19 cents. Taking it for $5 costs 37 cents.

    Well, I’m not playing at the $5, $10,or even $25 level. My average bet is about $150 per hand and my expectation is around 1.5% over the long run. So, from my $200 hourly income I give back probably $25 per hour for cover. But that’s fine with me because I make money while having the most fun one can dream about. In all honesty, I forgot how it feels to have a real job where you perform real work.

    By the way Renzey, I enjoyed reading both of your books very much. Extremely valuable advice. I would recommend your books to those who take blackjack seriously though. What I don’t agree with is the fact that the counting systems people looking nowadays are to simple and probably less powerful. I see people looking for systems like KO or Red 7 just to avoid true count conversion. What’s the problem with TC? That’s not a big deal. With the system I’m using, I have the running count monitoring the insurance for 100% correlation while the true count with side of Aces takes care of betting. It seems to me that people would like to track just a few cards and make money on that alone. Well, This is simply incorrect. This is not my opinion, this is simply incorrect to omit certain cards to avoid working harder but expecting to make money. Is silly to keep track of just a few cards like Aces & 5 or 3456 vs. Tens, because if you are a serious player, you must use all the best tools. People should realize that they figure to win a certain amount per hour in the long run. When we play we’re coming to work, not at gambling, and we constantly must be playing our best in the hopes that, or in the certainty, actually, that we will win what you are expected to win. So why no using the best? What’s more powerful than 100% insurance correlation? …, None! . There is no other strategic play that can give the player an extra 0.35% to 0.45% on top of his edge if he’s playing the insurance correctly. That is the move that will cut a big chunk into the dealer’s BJs.

    All the best to you,
  • AlexD30 said:
    Well, I’m not playing at the $5, $10,or even $25 level. My average bet is about $150 per hand and my expectation is around 1.5% over the long run. So, from my $200 hourly income I give back probably $25 per hour for cover. But that’s fine with me because I make money while having the most fun one can dream about. In all honesty, I forgot how it feels to have a real job where you perform real work.

    By the way Renzey, I enjoyed reading both of your books very much. Extremely valuable advice. I would recommend your books to those who take blackjack seriously though. What I don’t agree with is the fact that the counting systems people looking nowadays are to simple and probably less powerful. I see people looking for systems like KO or Red 7 just to avoid true count conversion. What’s the problem with TC? That’s not a big deal. With the system I’m using, I have the running count monitoring the insurance for 100% correlation while the true count with side of Aces takes care of betting. It seems to me that people would like to track just a few cards and make money on that alone. Well, This is simply incorrect. This is not my opinion, this is simply incorrect to omit certain cards to avoid working harder but expecting to make money. Is silly to keep track of just a few cards like Aces & 5 or 3456 vs. Tens, because if you are a serious player, you must use all the best tools. People should realize that they figure to win a certain amount per hour in the long run. When we play we’re coming to work, not at gambling, and we constantly must be playing our best in the hopes that, or in the certainty, actually, that we will win what you are expected to win. So why no using the best? What’s more powerful than 100% insurance correlation? …, None! . There is no other strategic play that can give the player an extra 0.35% to 0.45% on top of his edge if he’s playing the insurance correctly. That is the move that will cut a big chunk into the dealer’s BJs.

    All the best to you,

    Very stange post Alex. Although the first paragraph sounds alot like your usual egotistical rants where you bore people with how great it is to be you, the next paragraph is a direct contradiction to all your other posts of the past couple of years. You remember like when you totally discounted counting as a way to play blackjack. And then you were trying to sell this supposed system of yours that every experienced player on the board shot holes through until you finally went away. By the way with your other system your top bet never went over $55, I guess you gave up on that system too now that you claim your average bet to be $150.
    All I can say is at least for the time being you are realizing counting is the only way to get an advantage. Try to stay the course this time and maybe you'll really get to see what its like to play blackjack with an edge. And please don't bring back your alter ego countfast, he was just an annoying bore. Well I hope this is not just another phase you're going through, because maybe now you can add something to the board beside noise.
  • I was thinking the same thing.
    Its as if someone started a post and it got hijacked halfway thru.I guess it depends on which meds are kicking in,at which moment.
  • AlexD30 said:
    I would recommend your books to those who take blackjack seriously though.




    Alex, I agree with you 100%! That book is fabulous.
  • Bullshit is everywhere today. Everywhere. I have never taken insurance in my life until this past four days. I went to one of the Redskin Casinos and used the SC for four days. Three times I took Insurance against a dealer's A. I hit it all three times. Turned $2,000 into $4,000 at $10/25 dollar tables. Alex is full of himself and Andee is still chasing flashing lights. Golfnut, you were my cover. LOL Fred's advice is solid, but it has been around since dirt, but nice to see condensed in a new book to sell.

    Great Forum...good to see some people have a life.

    All the best, Countfast
  • The first line of your last post sums up your whole storyline you slow witted fool. You are full of it. Its great how most of the senior members pretty much either tear up your points or just ignore you and then you come back to sing a different song, just like someone else, hmmm... I wonder who that could be. You are a joke and thats why I love to instigate your foolish little tirades so basically you discredit yourself by exposing your true character. Or lack thereof to be more exact. Since you are so easy to manipulate this way I sincererly doubt you are anything you ever claimed to be, not that it really matters anyway. So maybe its time to put this character on the shelf and work on being the new and improved Alex, its a much better fit for this forum.
  • Hey Andee maybe its a good idea not to start trouble with anyone regardless of what you think of them. It really doesn't help answer anybody's blackjack questions. Basically it takes away from what the original thread is about. I understand some people are quite frustrating to try to deal with, but only if you let them be. Be a bigger man and just avoid posts by people you dislike, and get down to the real issues of blackjack. Nobody can fight if there's nobody to fight with.
  • Who cares what you think? Your mouth is contributes dirt. The only three real counters posting on this board are: Number one...Grifter Two Ray Three Bojack. You are nothing. Period. In addition, easy to get going...lol

    Now, get ready to go to work.
  • Andee said:
    Very stange post Alex. Although the first paragraph sounds alot like your usual egotistical rants where you bore people with how great it is to be you, the next paragraph is a direct contradiction to all your other posts of the past couple of years. You remember like when you totally discounted counting as a way to play blackjack. And then you were trying to sell this supposed system of yours that every experienced player on the board shot holes through until you finally went away. By the way with your other system your top bet never went over $55, I guess you gave up on that system too now that you claim your average bet to be $150.
    All I can say is at least for the time being you are realizing counting is the only way to get an advantage. Try to stay the course this time and maybe you'll really get to see what its like to play blackjack with an edge. And please don't bring back your alter ego countfast, he was just an annoying bore. Well I hope this is not just another phase you're going through, because maybe now you can add something to the board beside noise.



    Andee

    follow Bojack's advice elsewhere in this thread and just pass on making comments. I was here when Alex went on and on about a "can't lose" progression, then he somehow became a skilled counter, then back to a progression player, then back to a counter. It's pointless to debate with someone when their stated position is a moving target that never stays still long enough to be addressed cleanly...

    There's _plenty_ of good advice to be had here, once you learn who/what to skip over in your reading. :)
  • what's with all the childish name calling? over and over again. wow.
    please,calm down.
    rogue1
  • I just would like to apologize to all the responsible and real members of this board for my posts concerning certain others that I will no longer mention. I realize now that there is no need to point fingers at the elephant in the room. As of now I will just ignore it like the others. Although I do get a certain enjoyment out of getting a rise out of those who deserve it, I understand it doesn't belong on this forum. Again I'm sorry for getting caught up in silly tit for tat disputes on this fine board, and from now on I will stick to all subjects blackjack.
  • Andee said:
    I just would like to apologize to all the responsible and real members of this board for my posts concerning certain others that I will no longer mention. I realize now that there is no need to point fingers at the elephant in the room. As of now I will just ignore it like the others. Although I do get a certain enjoyment out of getting a rise out of those who deserve it, I understand it doesn't belong on this forum. Again I'm sorry for getting caught up in silly tit for tat disputes on this fine board, and from now on I will stick to all subjects blackjack.



    No need to apologize. You will discover that there are those who post, with the sole intent of drawing attention, whether it is negative or positive attention doesn't matter in the least. They just want attention. And, in general, if they don't get it, they will disappear. If they do get a rise from someone, they can say "mission accomplished" and then the cycle repeats.

    You remember the old "there's a bad apple in every barrel" metaphor? Well the internet is an _enormous_ barrel. There's way more than one bad apple present.
  • Well spoken..."I estimate that one blackjack player in 500 is a card counter."
    -Renzey 8/7/2003 "Hit or Stand"

    That's all I have been trying to explain to you "want-to-be-counters" here.

    Enjoy your day, -C.F.]:) :) :) :)
  • countfast said:"I estimate that one blackjack player in 500 is a card counter."-Renzy 8/7/2003 "Hit or Stand"



    I agree with Renzy. As usual, you have taken a perfectly simple statement and completely misunderstood it.

    For every person who posts on this site there are (at least) 500 other losing players who go to casinos and throw their money away. The majority of people simply don't understand card counting or don't even know what it is. Even more will try it but give up. Still others will learn a weak system (like GT) or play bad games (like 8-deckers with bad pen) and will be playing at a disadvantage without even knowing it. Some will learn how to count cards but won’t bother to learn everything else that goes along with it like bet sizing, ROR, game selection or any advanced techniques. They will often get frustrated with their own results and claim that "the system doesn't work" or "the games can't be beat" (sound familiar?). The remaining players (that 1 out of 500) put in the time and effort to learn how to play properly and make the game profitable.

    The game doesn't magically become profitable just because you learn how to count cards - you still have a lot more to learn before you will really know how to beat the game. Simply reading a few books will not make you a savy player. The best way to learn the game is to participate in websites like this one where you can get good advice from reputable players who have been studying this game for decades. The fact that these people are reading and posting on this site already proves that they are far ahead of the general public. In all my years of playing I have never seen a single person playing accurate BS in a casino. The ratio of smart players to imbeciles is easily 1:500. That is what Renzy was trying to say.

    I really wish you would stop trying to cause trouble on this website. It wastes our time and it just makes you look stupid over and over again.

    -Sonny-
  • Bojack1- "Nobody can fight if there's nobody to fight with" That's about the best comment that I've seen lately.

    We might also try..... "I've never met an individual that I could not learn something from" I think that came from some long-term BJ player.
  • The best place to learn this game is live table play. Yes, forums and books add gun power, but nothing beats live interaction. Anyone who has not met a perfect BS player in their entire life at a table is no player.
  • "The best place to learn this game is live table play" ....Very true. What is automatic and second nature at home somehow goes south at the tables. The game is different....no, the environment is different....yes/no.

    If you go to the doctor and have a blood pressure of 120/70, at the doctors office it may read 140/90. You are different at the tables and doctors office.
  • countfast said:
    The best place to learn this game is live table play.


    I disagree. Casinos are terrible places to learn how to play. The other players and dealers are always giving you terrible advice, they complain when you play properly, the play tends to be very slow which is not good for practicing and there are way too many distractions. I think the best place to learn the game is at home where it won't cost you anything and you can play as fast as you want and concentrate on learning. By the time you start playing in the casino you should already know how to play. That way you won't have to worry about your play in the middle of all those distractions. You can't expect to learn how to play and how to deal with the live interactions at the same time.

    In general, learning "in the field" is not ideal. Does a good skydiver learn how to use a parachute in the air? Does a good soldier learn how to operate his weapon in the middle of the battlefield? Of course not! You have to learn the basics before you can apply them in the real world. I agree that the casino environment is completely different anything you've ever experienced, so the better you are at home, the easier the transition will be. There is absolutely no reason that someone betting money at the table should not know how to play (even though it is the norm at most casinos).

    countfast said:
    Anyone who has not met a perfect BS player in their entire life at a table is no player.


    I could say the same thing about someone who admits that they "haven't achieved a break-even point todate" after several years of play or that they "have been playing BJ seriously for the past three years, and have never taken insurance." Maybe the latter explains the former.

    It's not my fault that everyone else is so bad. I'm doing everything I can to educate players who want to learn (and even a few that are too stubborn to learn but hang around websites anyway).

    -Sonny-
  • Overall I agree with Sonny on this, but I do see Ray's point. It doesn't matter how well you play at home if it can't be translated to real casino play due to whatever reason, distractions, dealers habits, nervousness betting real money, unable to cope with the different speeds of the game, and just being unable to handle the overall spontaneous intangibles of the game. Then your skills don't really amount to anything. However there needs to be thorough preparation in learning advantage play before you can even think about playing it successfully in a casino. Trying to learn on live tables will cost more money than I think most would be willing to spend. Not to mention the frustration level that would cause most to abandon ship only to proclaim that counting doesn't work. How many times have we heard that. Lets clear something up, counting will no longer work when 1+1 ceases to equal 2. Or when unskilled and undertrained people undertake the task of using it in a casino. There are 2 stages of being a successful advantage player. First you must practice and train to become proficient before you even set foot in a casino. Second you must take your learned skills and translate them to actual live play. Both of which take a lot of work and some time. Bottom line is you better learn what you're doing before you hit the casino, and when you get there be prepared to learn some more.
  • Thanks for the clarification Bojack1- It's not hard to take a post out of context. We all do that sometimes.

    Does anyone believe that a player can learn the theory of blackjack just by playing? I think the answer must be no, but a transition period is also very much a learning process, learning to cope.

    It's not so much the environment because we can sim that at home. I think it is the realization that an individual has when facing a real game with real money.
  • A true warrior is trained at Fort Knox, but hardened in the heat of battle. It's easy to send a $300 bet on CVBJ verses sending it at the tables when your down $2,000. No question home training is necessary to prepare but miles from actual table time.
  • countfast said:
    Well spoken..."I estimate that one blackjack player in 500 is a card counter."
    -Renzey 8/7/2003 "Hit or Stand"

    That's all I have been trying to explain to you "want-to-be-counters" here.

    Enjoy your day, -C.F.]:) :) :) :)



    Perhaps more than 20 years ago, perhaps not, one in 500 players were counters. Today, I believe not 1 in 500 even know basic strategy perfectly! Perhaps in downtown Vegas a higher percentage know, but if you play on the strip, in Indian Casinos and in other countries, 1 in 500 basic strategy players seem quite generous to me. I also feel that once basic strategy is learned perfectly it is not a big step to learn a count system, but a big step to actually be a winning counter.

    ihate17
  • No question better players DT Vegas. Redskin players are rapidly improving within last year verses Strip. I disagree that after perfect BS is acquired counting correctly will come easy.
  • If you make these cover plays you will more than likely end up a loser at the end of the session. You will not have to be worried from being barred from playing. One cover play is standing on 16 vs a 10 with a count of plus 1 it is actually a correct play. If you do it with a count of 0 you only lose 3%.
  • I hate 17 has it exactly right so far as I'm concerned.
  • If you asked certain casino bosses or better yet ask people whose business is dependent upon casino paranoia (Alliance/Bally Gaming or Shufflemaster), they will tell you for certain that there is a member of the MIT counting team waiting behind every table waiting for the opportune time to pounce. It is in their best interest to convince casino executives that evil counters are everywhere.

    This has nothing to do with cover play, but I just enjoy making a post like this.

    ihate17
  • ihate17 said:
    If you asked certain casino bosses or better yet ask people whose business is dependent upon casino paranoia (Alliance/Bally Gaming or Shufflemaster), they will tell you for certain that there is a member of the MIT counting team waiting behind every table waiting for the opportune time to pounce. It is in their best interest to convince casino executives that evil counters are everywhere.

    This has nothing to do with cover play, but I just enjoy making a post like this.

    ihate17



    Actually this is not just true of the pit critters, it is pervasive throughout the casino industry. Griffin has (had?) casinos convinced they were losing millions each month to card counters, but they (Griffin) had the information necessary to protect the casinos. MindPlay convinced the casinos that card counters were killing them, and over-comping players was their second biggest loss, but they (mindplay) had an electronic solution that could protect the casinos. The automatic shuffler manufacturers convinced the casinos that everyone at the table was shuffle-tracking, and they (the manufacturers) had a solution to both speed up the game increasing the hourly hold, and eliminating tracking, eliminating the loss to those unsavory characters. The continuous shuffling manufactures convinced the casinos that card counters were attacking them in droves, but they (the manufacturers again) had a device that defeated card counting. Even after some learned to just rip the CSM machines to shreds after studying them. Of course the manufacturers never mentioned this small flaw...


    It is an industry based entirely on fear and paranoia. The casinos are spending way more on protection, than the protection they buy is saving them in actual increased income... But they are too stupid to realize they are being had by an entirely different type of "advantage player"... The kind that convinces them to buy crap that doesn't do anything except make the seller rich... And they think we card counters are bad???

    If they could borrow just a few brain cells, they'd see who is really taking them to the cleaners... new hardware. new software. game protection personnel. the Griffin book. zillions of decks of cards to make sure none are getting marked. A nice industry to be a part of... :)
  • Hey Rat

    Very astute on your part. Their certainly is different types of APs out their.
    Just think if they could track new 'counters' and how much they leave on the tables. Snyder had an article on this very same thing. I dont remember names, but a pb or supervisor did some studies in conjunction with U of Nev-Reno, and found that deeper pen, good rules actually enhanced profits, even knowing that some good ap's will scrape a bit off bottom line. I mean, lets be honest, if it was your money, of course you would be very careful as to who was playing, but, it just doesnt make sense the amount of money they spend.
    The cat and mouse continue to do battle...mice are amazing at adapting and surviving though.
  • A couple of good examples of casino management's lack of realistic appraisal of situations are;

    Recently, amidst a community of strictly shoe games, a local fledgling casino opened up some double deck tables. They restricted doubling down to 10 and 11 only -- no soft doubling and no double on 9, or on any other totals for that matter. I assume they felt they'd pick up the extra .11% from lack of basic strategy soft doubling and the .10% from no doubling on 9.

    But the reality is that almost no players actually soft double correctly! Some calculations will show that if a player soft doubles on A/2 thru A/5 against a 2 or 3 and refuses to soft double on any A/7 (with all other soft doubles being correctly executed), that player nets only .02% from all his soft doubles -- and this would be a typical soft doubling strategy for most experienced players. With regard to doubling on 9, some players do it pretty well and others don't. To boot, the "D10,11" rule stops all the suicidal doubles on 12, or on 7 or on 8. So where the casino would pick up .21% if everybody played good B/S, they might actually gain perhaps only .05% or so. And in the process, they've made the ploppy feel confined and have reduced his playing latitude/enjoyment.

    I feel similarly about late surrender. In places I play where surrender is allowed, most players don't use it at all, and most who do, abuse it to their own detriment. I tend to believe that the more playing options you provide the player, the more rope he'll use to hang himself with. Yet, he'll feel more empowered with a greater menu of playing options at his disposal.
  • To Rat and all

    I had placed my opinion about casino paranoia/greed (I left out fear) in the thread about the counting threat being over-rated.

    Besides Griffin (what is the latest on their bankruptcy) things like the portrayal of counting and counting teams on TV shows sure makes it look a lot easier than it has been for me. These guys always get either blackjacks or busting dealers whenever the count favors them, I might get a share of those but as we all know, it does not work that way everytime.
    Another thing: As the casino world has gone more and more corporate, the people responsible for the results of the games and for the purchasing of things like Mindplay and CSM's are quite often people with little or no gaming experience.
    Then their is the most important thing of all (I love ploppys):

    THE PLOPPY FACTOR!!!!!

    The casino wins if only cardcounters ran away from CSM machines and if only the best in the counting community figured out how to beat Mindplay into submission. But the casinos lost on these items because the people who made the decision to buy did not take the ploppy factor into consideration. The superstition or dislike of playing against some weird contraption or machine at their table has taken more than enough of the bigger betting players away from the tables where either CSM's or Mindplay have been employed. In places like Vegas they just went to another table or the casino next door. I can only guess that none of these casino executives asked themselves the question: Will my players play against these things?
    The fact is that we as cardcounters are such a small minority and a minority that they do not want to cater too anyway, that our dislike of these things would be look at as a positive by casino execs, but what about the ploppy who pays all their bills? Inept management
    So the fact that I can still find decent hand shuffled games at more than enough places is a debt that I owe to the superstitious ploppy who will not play against strange gizmos at his table.
    Thank you!!!

    ihate17 (but I love ploppys)
  • I have a friend that was a higher-up with game protection responsibilities, and he used to laugh about the "counter threat". He (and apparently many others) spent much time explaining how card counters, trackers, hole-carders, and outright cheaters are taking them to the cleaners. In his words, it is all about self-preservation. I supposed the various companies offering game protection stuff do the same exact thing. Everyone wants to present the idea that they are absolutely indespensable with respect to saving the casino money. :)
  • I believe the corporations (owners) purchased MindPlay to maintain some sanity against "free agent hosts" hugh salary demands and pet guests. A woman guest I know very well who is sleeping with a host recently had a five figure marker wiped out in one shoe at the "Dead Kings" Vegas gig. I watched it and she would never even think about splitting 9's verses an 8. She was just around for the ride and the Host set it up. It's a family there and everyone eats but nobody gets fat. Does anyone know a "Super Host" who supported Mindplay? I don't think so. The night before I was playing $25 blackjack with her and she was bitching about losing another dime. It's amazing what an extra room key can get you in Vegas. I'm currently totally comp'd from 12/18-1/1 all the doing of one host. Three top hotels and two of them never received a quarter from me. I did send a half dozen vintage Dom for the Holiday.
  • jimpenn said:
    I believe the corporations (owners) purchased MindPlay to maintain some sanity against "free agent hosts" hugh salary demands and pet guests. A woman guest I know very well who is sleeping with a host recently had a five figure marker wiped out in one shoe at the "Dead Kings" Vegas gig. I watched it and she would never even think about splitting 9's verses an 8. She was just around for the ride and the Host set it up. It's a family there and everyone eats but nobody gets fat. Does anyone know a "Super Host" who supported Mindplay? I don't think so. The night before I was playing $25 blackjack with her and she was bitching about losing another dime. It's amazing what an extra room key can get you in Vegas. I'm currently totally comp'd from 12/18-1/1 all the doing of one host. Three top hotels and two of them never received a quarter from me. I did send a half dozen vintage Dom for the Holiday.


    Jim

    The El Dorado is not concerned with high rollers or free agent hosts.
    The only 2 places that ever used Mindplay in Vegas were the Hilton and then Flamingo. The Hilton has had a few high rollers but their high rollers were more regulars than the type these hosts bring in. Flamingo, as far as I know has no appeal to anyone with a sizeable bankroll. So if Mindplay had been employed at casinos like Caesars, Bellaggio and other high end places, I would agree with you, but those places turned the salesman down!

    Getting special favors from Hosts or other employees is something that happens in Vegas all the time and internally they have the ability already to control this if they want. I have several family members who work for casinos, two of which are in fairly high management positions. Though I never play blackjack in their casino, if I ask they will always get me a nice suite when I am in town.

    ihate17

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