Do I Have Rights In An Indian Casino?
  • I've been going to a number of Indian casinos for a number of years now and have always enjoyed myself while there. I just have one question:do I have the same rights as a citizen in a non-indian casino?
    If they decided to backroom me or arrest me or whatever where do I stand? Anyone know the answer? Thanks.
  • according to Snyder in his book 'blackbelt in bj' no, you do not. I have that fear when I travel into the good 'ol US of A as a canadian. What the hell would I do ? Guess one has to be extremely careful.
  • A Canadian traveling in the US has the same rights as any other person.Dispite what some right-wing blowhards would have you think,there is not one set of laws for Americans,and a different one for foriegners.
    As for the Indian casinos,they are independent nations and US law is not the law of the land.
  • so then, if an American has no rights, and I have the same as an American being Canadian, doesnt that still mean I have no rights ????That is still good to know, NYB, much appreciated. It seems that they can do as they please in their casinos.
  • Yes you still have the same legal rights in Indian casinos as you do in the state that the casino is in. Although their casino policies can be whatever they choose, they cannot change or overule their state laws. For example they must adhere to the states drinking age, and hours that alcohol can be served. They cannot arrest you unless you break a state or federal law, they cannot make laws, but like any other casino outside of NJ, they can kick you out if they want, for whatever reason they want as long as it is not based on bias.(Meaning race, color, creed, or any other social profiling) And if you have been read a tresspass act, you than can be arrested if you come back. Although it doesn't mean they can't break the law by roughing you up a little, but with the lawsuits that have happened recently thats pretty much a thing of the past. I believe all this to be completely true as I got this info from one of the lawyers I work for. Not only has he been practicing law for over 20 years, he's a pretty fair card counter as well.
  • thank you Andee.
  • golfnut101 said:
    so then, if an American has no rights, and I have the same as an American being Canadian, doesnt that still mean I have no rights ????That is still good to know, NYB, much appreciated. It seems that they can do as they please in their casinos.



    I've been backed off from several indian joints. You have nothing to worry about ! I've never been backroomed. They will just take you aside and explain that you are no longer welcomed to play BJ, one place limited me to a 1-2 spread.
  • Andee said:
    Yes you still have the same legal rights in Indian casinos as you do in the state that the casino is in. Although their casino policies can be whatever they choose, they cannot change or overule their state laws. For example they must adhere to the states drinking age, and hours that alcohol can be served. They cannot arrest you unless you break a state or federal law, they cannot make laws, but like any other casino outside of NJ, they can kick you out if they want, for whatever reason they want as long as it is not based on bias.(Meaning race, color, creed, or any other social profiling) And if you have been read a tresspass act, you than can be arrested if you come back. Although it doesn't mean they can't break the law by roughing you up a little, but with the lawsuits that have happened recently thats pretty much a thing of the past. I believe all this to be completely true as I got this info from one of the lawyers I work for. Not only has he been practicing law for over 20 years, he's a pretty fair card counter as well.


    I agree with everything your lawyer said but just as things still go wrong in Vegas, they can go wrong in an Indian Casino.
    Ask him this: If one lands up being asaulted by casino employees in an Indian Casino.
    1. Would the police arrest them?
    2. Would you be able to sue them in civil court or only tribal court?
    3. Does all this depend upon the compact the tribe has with the individual state?

    Thanks

    ihate17
  • My understanding is that any events that occur in Indian Casinos are tried in Indian court,which is very different than US civil courts.No awards for pain and suffering,for example.
  • NYB said:
    My understanding is that any events that occur in Indian Casinos are tried in Indian court,which is very different than US civil courts.No awards for pain and suffering,for example.



    Andee's lawyer answered the question from the point of view of what happens if we break the law. I found that surprising so I asked my questions. The reason I found it surprising is that he stated that he was a 20 year cardcounter?? As a cardcounter he should have been looking at it from the complete other side; what happens when the employees of the Indian Casino break the law?
    As NYB said, you are looking at tribal court, which just might be highly biased if you are suing said tribe. Now for criminal charges there might be something in the state agreement with the tribe or there might not be.

    As someone who was once slightly brutalized by Harrah's security in my room (no cameras there), and also play quite a bit at Indian casinos, the subject is something I do give some thought too.
    Though gaming in Nevada choses to be ineffective, they exist so at times they might be effective but Nevada does have a system of appeals and courts, where a wronged party at least has a chance.
    Being most familar with California, the state effectively has absolutely no system, no one is watching the barn and the state courts will point you in the direction of the tribal court and shruff their shoulders. The good news is that those running the casinos for the tribes do regulate themselves. They want to appear as good neighbors, fear negative press and many are the California equivalent of the locals casino. They hire so many locals that if you live in the town you perhaps have casino employees on your block, and see them at the market and PTA, This is all good, but there is nothing for the person entering the Indian casino in California to fall back on if he for instance, did get beaten by casino security, while there is in Nevada.

    Remember casino security, Nevada or Tribal land, are not police, do not have police powers and are simply private citizens. When someone is detained in a casino, they are being held till gaming or metro arrive and being held is considered a citizen's arrest.

    ihate17
  • ihate17 said:
    Andee's lawyer answered the question from the point of view of what happens if we break the law. I found that surprising so I asked my questions. The reason I found it surprising is that he stated that he was a 20 year cardcounter?? As a cardcounter he should have been looking at it from the complete other side; what happens when the employees of the Indian Casino break the law?
    As NYB said, you are looking at tribal court, which just might be highly biased if you are suing said tribe. Now for criminal charges there might be something in the state agreement with the tribe or there might not be.

    As someone who was once slightly brutalized by Harrah's security in my room (no cameras there), and also play quite a bit at Indian casinos, the subject is something I do give some thought too.
    Though gaming in Nevada choses to be ineffective, they exist so at times they might be effective but Nevada does have a system of appeals and courts, where a wronged party at least has a chance.
    Being most familar with California, the state effectively has absolutely no system, no one is watching the barn and the state courts will point you in the direction of the tribal court and shruff their shoulders. The good news is that those running the casinos for the tribes do regulate themselves. They want to appear as good neighbors, fear negative press and many are the California equivalent of the locals casino. They hire so many locals that if you live in the town you perhaps have casino employees on your block, and see them at the market and PTA, This is all good, but there is nothing for the person entering the Indian casino in California to fall back on if he for instance, did get beaten by casino security, while there is in Nevada.

    Remember casino security, Nevada or Tribal land, are not police, do not have police powers and are simply private citizens. When someone is detained in a casino, they are being held till gaming or metro arrive and being held is considered a citizen's arrest.

    ihate17

    I think you misunderstood, I said the lawyer I work for has been practicing law for over 20 years but also happens to be a pretty fair card counter. As far as what happens if an employee breaks the law, he 's basically saying its really no different whats going to happen to you than if it happened in any other casino. Tribal reservations due not have exclusive diplomatic immunity. Any felony commited on their premises is subject to investigation by either state or federal officials in conjunction with tribal justice. Being held against your will is a felony, as well as assault and battery, and that includes verbal threats. Its understandable that it will be your word against theirs, but in the same token, no casino, Indian or otherwise needs federal investigators snooping around or bad press for that matter. Actually that would be something that might even be assigned to me as an investigator for a law firm. And although we might not be able to sue or prosecute in a borderline case, we can stir up bad press to the point settlements are made even though there is no case. The only thing lower than casino management, is a lawyer, and these guys revel in others misery it seems. I guess it pays the bills.

    What it comes down to is if you take your backoff like your supposed to, quietly, nothing will happen in most cases. There is not going to be any one way trips to the desert or even broken bones. In the rare case of something severe happening a good lawyer should be able to make enough waves that it will offer you a positive EV for an ass beating.
  • Andee said:

    What it comes down to is if you take your backoff like your supposed to, quietly, nothing will happen in most cases. There is not going to be any one way trips to the desert or even broken bones. In the rare case of something severe happening a good lawyer should be able to make enough waves that it will offer you a positive EV for an ass beating.


    It was Vegas, it was the home of the evil empire itself. They had a weak dealer, I could see his hole card about 90% of the time and I stayed too long. I was approached by a suit and two goons. I was read the tresspass act, had my family cursed and told if he could he would kick my @#@%ing ass in front of the whole casino. I replied, yes sir, I will pack my bags and leave. They went with me to my room, cursing me loudly while in public areas like they were praying that I would react, so I smiled and said hello to everyone we passed. Once in my room this big goon pinned me up against the wall while the other faked a punch at me and then they let me pack. They then cursed me all the way to the cage but let me cash my chips and cursed me to the curb. I took my 86ing with a smile,polietly and completely burning up inside. Taking a backoff or tresspass like you are supposed to means you do nothing to give them a reason to call the police, and that is all it means. What you said is correct often but is also naive. Have enough of these and you will learn, hopefully not the hard way.

    ihate17
  • ihate17 said:
    It was Vegas, it was the home of the evil empire itself. They had a weak dealer, I could see his hole card about 90% of the time and I stayed too long. I was approached by a suit and two goons. I was read the tresspass act, had my family cursed and told if he could he would kick my @#@%ing ass in front of the whole casino. I replied, yes sir, I will pack my bags and leave. They went with me to my room, cursing me loudly while in public areas like they were praying that I would react, so I smiled and said hello to everyone we passed. Once in my room this big goon pinned me up against the wall while the other faked a punch at me and then they let me pack. They then cursed me all the way to the cage but let me cash my chips and cursed me to the curb. I took my 86ing with a smile,polietly and completely burning up inside. Taking a backoff or tresspass like you are supposed to means you do nothing to give them a reason to call the police, and that is all it means. What you said is correct often but is also naive. Have enough of these and you will learn, hopefully not the hard way.

    ihate17


    Now I know I don't have near the casino experience as you but I doubt what I said is being naive. Basically you agree that most times nothing really drastic happens on a backoff. Infrequent cases like yours is why I said most times and not all the time. And lets face it, your case was one of the worse ones, lately anyway, and you got cursed at, shoved a little, and a fake punch thrown at you. Nerve rattling I'll admit, but hardly a life threatning situation. Hell I've taken more of a beating following a deadbeat dad into the south Bronx taking pictures of him buying crack instead of paying child support, while his boys roll up on me and put as many dents in my face as they do my car. Hell a profanity strewn walk through a casino seems almost amusing to me at this point. Maybe if you were a homeless deviant that counted cards, you might have to worry about some real physical harm nowadays seeing if you turned up missing or beat up nobody would really care. As for the rest of us I think it would be a little much to answer to for the casinos if we came home with some bruises, or not at all. Like I said before you don't need a winnable case to get something, you need a case that promotes negative publicity in any way. 90% of lawsuits involving large corporations and high profile people don't ever make it to court. Most of them settle even though we could never beat them in a court of law. The seed of negativity it seems is more powerful than law sometimes. Theres 56 lawyers in the firm I work for, if you get another one of these let me know I'm sure they can think of something.
  • Andee...What city do you practice?

    My Son is a Partner with Kickpatrick & Lockart in Pittsburgh

    Just curious...
  • Andee,
    You are missing the point.
    You appear to live/work in NYC.you say 90% of lawsuits are settled out of court. In a situation at Foxwoods,or Mohegan Sun there would be no lawsuit. You can't sue in regular court and tribal court doesn't allow for pain and suffering.
  • Just to pipe in a bit, pain and suffering is just one type of penalty you can get. You could still sue and get money in other regards. Thus you can sue for your "pain" and "suffering" -- you just can't get the legal remedy of "pain and suffering." I don't know the scope of what penalties are legit. Certainly restitution would be -- i.e. doctor's bills, etc. Wrongful death (although hopefully we aren't talking about that) maybe. There also may be specific laws that speak to it and provide for damages.

    Also, depends on the Indian tribe. I didn't do a full look, but at least one allows recovery for pain and suffering: https://www.narf.org/nill/Codes/mpcode/masht20.htm
  • There was a rather infamous case in Conn. a few years ago. Elderly man was struck by an car that a valet had left in gear.
    He was pinned between two cars and lost one leg. Unable to sue in regular court,he went to tribal court where they ruled he had suffered no loss of income since he was retired and offered to pick up his out of pocket medical expenses. Had this happened in AC,the man would own the casino.
  • NYB said:
    There was a rather infamous case in Conn. a few years ago. Elderly man was struck by an car that a valet had left in gear.
    He was pinned between two cars and lost one leg. Unable to sue in regular court,he went to tribal court where they ruled he had suffered no loss of income since he was retired and offered to pick up his out of pocket medical expenses. Had this happened in AC,the man would own the casino.


    NYB, I think you're missing my point. Criminally the tribal justice system has to let outside investigation in concerning cases of felonies committed. In civil matters you are correct that gets put in front of a tribal court. But I'll tell you right now that elderly man you talked about in Connecticut must have had some backwards ass bumfuck lawyer. At the very least our guys would have approached the casino with a factual sworn police report of the fact that a valet caused the loss of a limb of their client. If no financial restitution is offered than that document goes public to every news avenue that will take it. For the loss of a limb, that will even be taken to a national level. Investigators such as my self will be brought in to bombard the casino with questions and get eyewitness reports, not for a lawsuit, but for a negative media frenzy. Crunching a corporations bottom line of profitability due to an onslaught of bad publicity of how a large heartless mega corporation took advantage of a defenseless old man is actually a fairly easy and effective way to get a monetary settlement out of court. No lawsuit required. Like I said before its common practice, even when we know we don't really have a winnable case. As long as we can drum up public sympathy and support, and paint a picture of uncaring negligence, its more powerful sometimes than if a judge rules in our favor. Its a mob rules mentality, and its a favorite tactic of many of the defense and personal injury lawyers. In other words the money lawyers.

    And Jim Penn I work for a law firm in New York City, And wow very impessive your son being a partner in that law firm, they are big time. I actually worked for a lawyer out of that firm here in NY my first year. I won't say his name here but if you pm me I'll let you know.
  • ihate17 said:
    It was Vegas, it was the home of the evil empire itself. They had a weak dealer, I could see his hole card about 90% of the time and I stayed too long. I was approached by a suit and two goons. I was read the tresspass act, had my family cursed and told if he could he would kick my @#@%ing ass in front of the whole casino. I replied, yes sir, I will pack my bags and leave. They went with me to my room, cursing me loudly while in public areas like they were praying that I would react, so I smiled and said hello to everyone we passed. Once in my room this big goon pinned me up against the wall while the other faked a punch at me and then they let me pack. They then cursed me all the way to the cage but let me cash my chips and cursed me to the curb. I took my 86ing with a smile,polietly and completely burning up inside. Taking a backoff or tresspass like you are supposed to means you do nothing to give them a reason to call the police, and that is all it means. What you said is correct often but is also naive. Have enough of these and you will learn, hopefully not the hard way.

    ihate17


    What year was this? You may or may not have done a few things wrong.
  • LVHCM said:
    What year was this? You may or may not have done a few things wrong.


    Not long ago.
  • Andee,
    Why would they even give you the time of day.You and your attorneys are not even permitted to appear in their courts.Do you really think the Conn. casino operators,who made their bones running Sun City in SA give a flying hoot about you giving them bad publicity?Lets see,you had a world-wide movement to boycott SA and entertainers being blacklisted for playing there,yet they made Sun City the most profitable resort in the world.
    The story of an old man getting screwed by a casino is a one day media event.A month from then,it fades into memory and in six months is an urban legend.
    You forget,its not a heartless corporation,its a tribe of Native Americancs that was crushed into near extinction,that is just now getting its rightful share of the bounty that was stolen from them.They have lawyers and media hacks too,and a heck of a lot more money to throw around then whomever thinks about taking them on.
  • ihate17 said:
    Not long ago.


    we all have different levels of confrontation we're willing to deal with, but with all due respect, and with hindsight being 20-20, why would you go so passively when we've now got Nersesian ready to take them on?

    The joint you speak of has a real piece of shit head of surveillance/security on graveyard. I believe he encourages his $12 dollar-an-hour morons to behave aggressively towards AP's, and you can take advantage of this.

    I was 86'd there about 3 years ago and also dealt with an aggressive guard, which is exactly the kind I want. They surrounded me with about 10 guards with the lead Mr. Buzzcut doing the same yelling routine at me. I went right back in his face explaining I was late for a date to anally penetrate his mother and he would have to step aside. As I headed towards the exit, I could feel Mr. Buzzcut was ready to turn it physical - but that fat slob casino manager on grave came huffing and puffing to tell the guard to let me go. Damn! There goes +EV settlement!

    My point is, in Vegas these days, encourage these buffoons to get physical. Just don't hit back. The worst thing that can happen is the Keystones kome and you spend a free night courtesy of the Clark County Detention Center. But then, like I said, you get a very nice payday and get to laugh at them in court. It's worked like a charm for me, and ideally, I'd like this to happen once a year.

    And please sir, NEVER cash out after a backoff.
  • NYB said:
    Andee,
    Why would they even give you the time of day.You and your attorneys are not even permitted to appear in their courts.Do you really think the Conn. casino operators,who made their bones running Sun City in SA give a flying hoot about you giving them bad publicity?Lets see,you had a world-wide movement to boycott SA and entertainers being blacklisted for playing there,yet they made Sun City the most profitable resort in the world.
    The story of an old man getting screwed by a casino is a one day media event.A month from then,it fades into memory and in six months is an urban legend.
    You forget,its not a heartless corporation,its a tribe of Native Americancs that was crushed into near extinction,that is just now getting its rightful share of the bounty that was stolen from them.They have lawyers and media hacks too,and a heck of a lot more money to throw around then whomever thinks about taking them on.


    What do you think I'm kidding when I say this happens all the time? First off we don't even have to be allowed in their courts to reach a settlement, its lawyers negotiating with lawyers in their offices. Next you are completely wrong that anyone that is not of the tribe in question cannot appear in court. Being on reservation land does not in anyway make you immune from common law practices. I'm sorry but you are completely misinformed about this. You are going more on Urban myth than truth. And if you think that there aren't more americans pissed off about having to pay the high rate of taxes, while these indian tribes get rich off the common working man while they pay no taxes on that money, you are the naive one. On top of that those that usually sympathize with the american indians plight of losing his land, are the same ones that usually despise casinos in their neighborhoods. So its easy to turn their passion into the direction we need for the moment.

    Like I've been saying, there have been cases where entertainment stars get accused of something, and they may be innocent, but a negative campaign is not worth the battle so they settle, usually undisclosed. As secretive as they try to be we always here about it. The same with corporations, and contrary to what you believe, although they have a lot of money, most of these indian casinos are not even close to a large law firms yearly grosses. And all it takes is a lawyer to see a potential moneymaker of a case, and it doesn't cost the client a thing until the settlement. So in fact these clients do have unlimited amounts of resources and money to fight against big money corporations. I'll tell you what, I'll look for some case precedents on this and see if I can't change your doubting Thomas outlook.
  • For an investigator,you sure are short on proof-reading ability. Please go back and read my post. No where does it say that anyone that is not in the tribe cannot appear in court.
    As far as your law firm grossing far more than Mohegan Sun,I'd like to see that paper.
    I await your past precedents.
  • And I thought my simple question could be answered in one paragraph!
  • Simple minds produce simple answers. You,my friend,are in the company of giants!
  • All I Can Say Is Ey!
  • LVHCM said:
    .

    And please sir, NEVER cash out after a backoff.

    why would you not cash out after a backoff?

    best regards,
    mr fr0g
  • sagefr0g said:
    why would you not cash out after a backoff?

    best regards,
    mr fr0g


    The cage is where they can get the best pics. Even in today's hi-tech world, you'd be surprised at how poor some pictures on fliers can be.
  • Perhaps I should have tried to get them to do as you say. My thoughts at the time went to keeping who I was out of the public eye as much as possible. Since today I am only barred from their properties, it may have worked and since I still enter their other properties (few games worth playing but many a weak dealer to take advantage of), play unrated and continue to take their money.

    As far as cashing the chips in, often I do not after a backoff, much less a barring, but at mid 5 figures, I wanted the money now rather than sending in friends or family who did not play and getting them to try to cash high denomination chips.

    ihate17

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