Idiots Who Don't Know Surrender
  • I got into arguements with two clowns at the Hilton LV because I kept surrendering when called for. They thought that was not a manly thing to do, and that it was also screwing up their cards. I had to tell of both of them that I absolutely did not want to hear any commentary from them about my play. I had to get quite adamant about it to shut them up.

    Funny thing was, I had misread the surrender table in the KO book and I was not even surrendering every hand I should. Not only that, was using a basic strategy table for dealer stays on soft 17! So there were even more surrender plays I missed, such as 17 or two 8s against an Ace!

    I guess if I ever play there again with either of those guys there might be a brawl--LOL. It's funny how people like to blame others for their own bad play. The KO book has a complicated "proof" of how bad play does not affect anything. It only affects you if you let it. We tend to remember the times someone messes up that hurt us, not the times they save the table. Do yourself a favor, ignore the bad play of others! It is so commonplace anyway.
  • Knox

    Those who verbally give the loudest advice, generally give the worst advice.
    Short story of something that happened recently and went right over an idiots head.
    I split 9,9 vs a dealer 3, win both hands but the dealer makes a hand which beats the loud mouth at first base. He starts yelling and I just tell him that I will play my way and there are plenty of other tables in the casino. Dealer deals him a blackjack on the next hand and I can not resist. I say, "Your welcome", dealer laughs but this guy did just not get it.

    ihate17
  • I am trying to teach my wife to play and their is this irritating guy from Jersey yelling the f-word every time he loses. He was also telling others at the table incorrect plays. Then he shows up at another table where my wife is while I am not there. He asked her if I had learned to play yet. Of course this guy was losing his @$$

    LOL
  • As for surrendering two 8's never do that always split them. As far as surrending 16 made up 10-6 9-7 or ther combinations against an ace I like that play.
  • learningtocount said:
    As for surrendering two 8's never do that always split them. As far as surrending 16 made up 10-6 9-7 or ther combinations against an ace I like that play.


    I play shoe games so maybe the rules are different, it sounds if you only play single and double deck. I've recently started counting cards and learning some indices for the games I play and it says to surrender 8's at a true count of 1 or higher against a ten. Also regular basic strategy says to surrender a 16 vs 9, 10, or ace and a 15 vs a 10. As far as playing with surrender A.C is the only place I've been to that doesn't offer it. All the places I play in Vegas have it, as well as my local joint.
  • learningtocount said:
    As for surrendering two 8's never do that always split them. As far as surrending 16 made up 10-6 9-7 or ther combinations against an ace I like that play.


    Learningtocount, where did you get the information that you should never surrender on two 8's? It look like Knox is playing a H17 game. He didn't say how many decks he's playing, but if he's playing a shoe, he's supposed to surrender on two 8's against an Ace if it's H17. Every basic strategy chart I've seen for H17 shoe games says to surrender a pair of 8's. For example, the charts at BlackjackInfo and WizardOfOdds say that.

    http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bjbse.php?numdecks=6+decks&soft17=h17&dbl=all&das=yes&surr=ls&peek=yes

    http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack

    So where did you get the information that you should never surrender two 8's? I would like a source please.
  • Other than out of your arse, that is.
  • Security Risk you are going to need to be mello when reading LTC posts.He is one of our "special" posters. You will see that if you review some of his other posts.
  • nc-tom said:
    He is one of our "special" posters. .



    LMFAO!!!!!
  • learningtocount said:
    As for surrendering two 8's never do that always split them. As far as surrending 16 made up 10-6 9-7 or ther combinations against an ace I like that play.



    LTC
    Reno has a few decent single deck games but once you go beyond those games, it offers very little in double deck or any good six deck shoes. Rules are different and every casino in Vegas (another place that offers blackjack, but you know nothing about) that has a good 6 deck shoe game, has late surrender.
    I often play at a California Indian Casino that offers late surrender and have played games with early surrender in Europe and Asia (they have blackjack also)

    As far as your experience goes concerning surrender, I suggest instead of offering poor advice, you try listening.

    ihate17
  • Only place I ever play that offers surrender is the AOL nightly tourneys.
    I'm under the impression you should surrender any 16,including 2 8s,against a dealer 10.Am I mistaken?
  • nc-tom said:
    Security Risk you are going to need to be mello when reading LTC posts.He is one of our "special" posters. You will see that if you review some of his other posts.


    Yes, I have seen his other posts. I just thought instead of simply saying "you're wrong", I would give him the chance to defend himself and say where he got his information from. He reminds me of players at the table offering me "advice."
  • Security Risk said:
    Yes, I have seen his other posts. I just thought instead of simply saying "you're wrong", I would give him the chance to defend himself and say where he got his information from. He reminds me of players at the table offering me "advice."



    Learning to Count is not that player offering you wrong advice. He is (he deals at Crystal Bay) dealer offering you wrong advice.

    ihate17
  • NYB said:
    Only place I ever play that offers surrender is the AOL nightly tourneys.
    I'm under the impression you should surrender any 16,including 2 8s,against a dealer 10.Am I mistaken?



    You have 8,8

    Dealer
    Ace in a H-17 game surrender if count is under +4
    Ace in a S-17 gane do not surrender, but split
    10 +1
    9 +7

    So in a neutral count you are supposed to split but it is fairly borderline at +1

    If you get to Vegas, a few of the casinos with late surrender are, Mandalay Bay, Luxor, Tropicana, MGM, Monte Carlo, Venitian, Mirage, Wynn, Caesars and Belaggio. Also probably a few more.

    ihate17
  • I'm in Vegas fairly often,but play at Cortez,Vegas Club,Slots of Fun,Wild West and until recently Imperial Palace.I perfer double deck and am still not a regular green chipper.From walking thru most of the casinos you mention,their lo stakes games suck as badly as Harrahs do. Its their $100 games that are pretty good.Or am I mistaken. Will be there Dec 11th for a few days.Staying at Harrahs,but only playing some VP and 3 card poker there.
  • NYB said:
    I'm in Vegas fairly often,but play at Cortez,Vegas Club,Slots of Fun,Wild West and until recently Imperial Palace.I perfer double deck and am still not a regular green chipper.From walking thru most of the casinos you mention,their lo stakes games suck as badly as Harrahs do. Its their $100 games that are pretty good.Or am I mistaken. Will be there Dec 11th for a few days.Staying at Harrahs,but only playing some VP and 3 card poker there.



    MGM, Monte Carlo and Mandalay Bay will have low limit, 6 deck shoes where the dealer stays on soft17, double after split, double any first two cards, split up to 4 hands and late surrender. House edge .26%, not as good as the El Cortez game but actually better than the Slots-A-Fun double deck and anything, including high limit that you could possibly find in Imperial Palace. Generally $10, but they raise the limits when they get busy.
    Also, the good games are never ever placed near the front, the front is for the suckers who sit down at the first tables they see. In the MGM as an example, you must pass something like 4 pits, and just past the cage you will find a pit with the good games.
    Harrah's $100 game is worse than these casinos $10 game. So playing VP there, (probably poor also) is a better idea than playing blackjack there.

    ihate17
  • IP had a nice DD game for a few months last year S17,DOA,DOS.Penetration wasn't very good though. But as I usually stay at Harrahs while on the strip,it was the closest decent game. Its long gone now,replaced by 6-5 carnival games.How is TI or Mirage?Where are their good games? I doubt I'll get down to MB.
    I'm pretty sure the week of the 11th is very slow,so stakes should be low.
    This isn't a real gambling trip though,so I only have an hour or two a day.
    End of Jan. I'll be playing 8-10 hours a day for the week.
  • NYB said:
    IP had a nice DD game for a few months last year S17,DOA,DOS.Penetration wasn't very good though. But as I usually stay at Harrahs while on the strip,it was the closest decent game. Its long gone now,replaced by 6-5 carnival games.How is TI or Mirage?Where are their good games? I doubt I'll get down to MB.
    I'm pretty sure the week of the 11th is very slow,so stakes should be low.
    This isn't a real gambling trip though,so I only have an hour or two a day.
    End of Jan. I'll be playing 8-10 hours a day for the week.




    Mirage is a higher end property than TI, but what cost you a minimum of $25 at Mirage will cost you $100 at TI, but if they are slow you can always ask them to lower the limit and they might.

    An excellent double deck game where the dealer stays on soft 17 and DAS is allowed and the same 6 deck shoe rules that I mentioned for the strip casinos on the south strip. If you can not play at $25, the rules get worse.

    If you count, Mirage will more likely evaluate you (they evaluate from the eye) on the double deck game after seeing a strong spread. On the shoe game your play will probably be ignored unless something catches their attention.

    ihate17
  • Thanks.
    One of the reasons I prefer DD is that I often lose track of the count after 3/4 hands.Its either that,or sit like a rock and be pretty obvious. With DD,its not long until I get to start over.I don't mind playing $25,but don't have the BR to spread 1-4 or more on those games. For now,I play $15,then drop to 10 on neg counts or ramp 20-30,sometimes 50 as the count works.Have not taken the time to learn surrender indices so that is for another trip.
  • Since you will have a minimum bet out when the count is minus, it is more important that you know just surrender basic strategy, so you know at least most of the time where you should surrender in a positive count.
    It is very very simple, if you do not know it, here it is

    16 surrender vs dealer 9,10,A
    15 surrender vs dealer 10

    Just knowing this will give you most of the power of surrender.

    ihate17
  • Hey folks:

    Been away a while, I see that my thread lives on though!

    I will be in Vegas this Saturday and Sunday night. I'd be interested in some team play. I want to try out a new system for beating the 3-card poker blackjack sidebet. It is beatable. I'd like to play at 6-deck table with another counter, any system will do. That way we would each know when to up our bets and place the sidebet. If not I will have to do one or the other, or attempt to keep a (gulp) dreaded side count with a true count conversion, while playing regular KO!

    Anyone interested/available, PM me and we can exchange cell numbers.

    Also interested in continuing the discussion on best games in Vegas. My priority is 6-deck, best available game with the sidebet I mentioned. I am staying at the Hilton again, last time I was there it was $10 min and H17. I saw the discussion about the game with S17, DAS, ls. Unfortunately, I lost my arse last time under those conditions at Grand Vic (Cinci area). That darn negative variance!
  • ihate17 said:
    If you count, Mirage will more likely evaluate you (they evaluate from the eye) on the double deck game after seeing a strong spread. On the shoe game your play will probably be ignored unless something catches their attention.

    ihate17


    What do you consider a "strong spread?" Seems to me 1-5 would be strong enough for a $25 DD game. Strong enough to make money, but strong enough to get pit attention also? I was thinking I might go 2 hands x $75 next time I play there on high positive counts.
  • Knox said:
    What do you consider a "strong spread?" Seems to me 1-5 would be strong enough for a $25 DD game. Strong enough to make money, but strong enough to get pit attention also? I was thinking I might go 2 hands x $75 next time I play there on high positive counts.



    Knox
    The but is always a big one. A $125 max bet is nothing special in a place like Mirage, but never having seen you play, it is hard to say for sure, but you should be safe. If you are not playing alone then take a look at some of the other players. People go from $25 to several hundred all the time and no one pays much attention to them. Some players seem to wear a sign that says counter (even if they are not) and they get attention.

    Remember though, the Mirage is not a sweatshop. They are used to heavy action and though they might sweat a little if you are betting in the thousands per hand, but players going from green to chunky green are common.

    I would spread more but you should go ahead and spread with what you are comfortable with (your spread is enough where you still have a decent edge). Heat is something many newer counters are overly paranoid about. You become more able to detect it once you have had a few backoffs but knowing your opponent is very important. Your bet level would be a problem at places like Barbary Coast, Sun Coast and El Cortez but not at a place like Mirage.

    ihate17
  • Knox said:
    Hey folks:

    Been away a while, I see that my thread lives on though!

    I will be in Vegas this Saturday and Sunday night. I'd be interested in some team play. I want to try out a new system for beating the 3-card poker blackjack sidebet. It is beatable. I'd like to play at 6-deck table with another counter, any system will do. That way we would each know when to up our bets and place the sidebet. If not I will have to do one or the other, or attempt to keep a (gulp) dreaded side count with a true count conversion, while playing regular KO!

    Anyone interested/available, PM me and we can exchange cell numbers.

    Also interested in continuing the discussion on best games in Vegas. My priority is 6-deck, best available game with the sidebet I mentioned. I am staying at the Hilton again, last time I was there it was $10 min and H17. I saw the discussion about the game with S17, DAS, ls. Unfortunately, I lost my arse last time under those conditions at Grand Vic (Cinci area). That darn negative variance!

    What do you mean by 'negative' variance?
  • Hello all, I am still alive and well despite my extended absence.

    The negative variance is when you do everything right and still lost 10 or 20 hands in a row, thereby ruining your session and possibly your whole trip. Meanwhile, the little old lady across the table stays on all hard 12-16s and wins every hand! Every time the count is really positive, she get blackjack or pair of 10s, you get a 10 and a 6. That, my friend, is negative variance. Another example would be the deck is very rich in tens, but the dealer keeps pulling a card out of his arse and making every hard 14-16. This random variance gets worse with more decks.

    Regarding Cortez, I love the place. I was able to spread from $25-$85 on their single-deck game for hours with no problem, even got a nice comp offer in the mail. I would have like to spread bigger, but I don't want to get barred from the place. I am willing to sacrifice some to keep my welcome there.
  • Knox said:
    Hello all, I am still alive and well despite my extended absence.

    The negative variance is when you do everything right and still lost 10 or 20 hands in a row, thereby ruining your session and possibly your whole trip. Meanwhile, the little old lady across the table stays on all hard 12-16s and wins every hand! Every time the count is really positive, she get blackjack or pair of 10s, you get a 10 and a 6. That, my friend, is negative variance. Another example would be the deck is very rich in tens, but the dealer keeps pulling a card out of his arse and making every hard 14-16. This random variance gets worse with more decks.

    Regarding Cortez, I love the place. I was able to spread from $25-$85 on their single-deck game for hours with no problem, even got a nice comp offer in the mail. I would have like to spread bigger, but I don't want to get barred from the place. I am willing to sacrifice some to keep my welcome there.


    Things must have changed there in the last year or two. Last time I played the "el kotex", $25 to $100 drew more attention than a stark-naked playmate walking down the aisle...

    (not talking about shoe games of course.)
  • stainless steel rat said:
    Things must have changed there in the last year or two. Last time I played the "el kotex", $25 to $100 drew more attention than a stark-naked playmate walking down the aisle...

    (not talking about shoe games of course.)


    That is why I spread $25-$85. I figured I better keep it under $100 and I would be fine. I may push that up a bit when I go there next month. I have a manipulated loss (chip pocketing) on their records that should keep me welcome there for a while. If my wife likes the place I may keep it cool. If she doesn't then I may not have a use for their predominantly $5 tables anymore. I head the really bad pit nazi is no longer at Cortez, but this is essentially a small stakes place.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!