Surrender?
  • Surrender I believe that adding this option would have the same effect as adding insurance to the layout of the blackjack table in that it would contribute to overall profits at the table but card sharks like you and me would use it to are advantage and the real goal of the casino is to beat card sharks not just the ploppies which they will do anyway!!!
  • learningtocount said:
    Surrender I believe that adding this option would have the same effect as adding insurance to the layout of the blackjack table in that it would contribute to overall profits at the table but card sharks like you and me would use it to are advantage and the real goal of the casino is to beat card sharks not just the ploppies which they will do anyway!!!



    No, the casinos add rules because they believe that people will apply them stupidly and increase the house hold. Insurance is an example where people take this when they have a good hand or even 21, when it is in general a losing idea unless you count cards. Ditto for the "casino surrender" nosense where the casino will pay you 1/2 your bet rather than playing out the hand, when they know that for the cards they allow this on (you have a 2-card 20, dealer has a 10 showing, no ace down), you have an advantage that is higher than the 50% they pay you. But the average ploppy will jump right on it. Hey, it's a sure thing...

    They are not worrying about card counters, they are trying to find rules to entice players into making bets that have a bigger advantage for the house than just plain old blackjack rules. They plan on catching and barring the counters and letting the ploppies toss their money away even faster.
  • I think LTC was talking about late surrender and not casino surrender but I agree with what you said and can add late surrender to that list. About the easiest basic strategy to learn (surrender) but misplayed over and over again by those players who try it, so it does add to the casino bottom line. I have noticed an intersting ploppy style over the years. The same player who never hits his 12 vs 2 falls into one of two categories:
    1. Surrender! I am here to gamble
    2. Or if he does surrender, he will surrender his 12 vs A.10.9 or even 8.

    (But there again, I am never too sure just what LTC is talking about, except he has now declared himself a card shark)

    ihate17
  • What exactly is a card shark? Is it anything like a card sharp?
  • NYB said:
    What exactly is a card shark? Is it anything like a card sharp?


    They can only be found at the Trop's swim up game, tend to be more aggressive than a card sharp, and are truely expert at getting a heads up game.
  • ihate17 said:
    I think LTC was talking about late surrender and not casino surrender but I agree with what you said and can add late surrender to that list. About the easiest basic strategy to learn (surrender) but misplayed over and over again by those players who try it, so it does add to the casino bottom line. I have noticed an intersting ploppy style over the years. The same player who never hits his 12 vs 2 falls into one of two categories:
    1. Surrender! I am here to gamble
    2. Or if he does surrender, he will surrender his 12 vs A.10.9 or even 8.

    (But there again, I am never too sure just what LTC is talking about, except he has now declared himself a card shark)

    ihate17


    My original comment was about regular surrender. I added the "casino surrender" as an illustration of another new "rule" someone came up with that is bad for the player that doesn't count. Casino surrender can be beaten by a counter, just like regular surrender. I'd much rather take 50% profit than push, when the count is high enough to justify this...
  • My comments where on regular surrender I think that surrender would be tremendously miss played giving the house an even larger edge than normal.
  • Here's the point. The casino offers all sorts of "options" where a casual player can be convinced they are good things to do, but in reality they are not. They exercise some caution to avoid some of the past fiascos where advantage players bust 'em over the head before they realize it. But they offer plenty of opportunities for the casual player to lose more money.

    I remember when the "casino surrender" first came up. There was a web site somewhere that said something like this:

    "A new option. You can make the casino surrender 1/2 of your wager when you have a 2-card 20 and the casino has a 10 up. You reap a profit of 1/2 your original bet (you still keep your original bet too.) Why should you do this? If you have a 20 and the dealer has a 10 up, you will only win 55% of the hands. This new surrender option guarantees you a 50% profit. You can't beat that."

    As I read it I almost choked. An advantage player would read that as "let me talk you into a sure 50% profit vs a sure 55% profit. Boy am I doing me a big favor..."

    :)

    One can look at any casino offering (3cp, variants of 21, let it ride, etc). All give the player opportunities to squander even more money than they realize. Funny to watch someone play at a $10 3cp table and not understand "where is my money going so fast?" It's really a $30 table if you do the pairs plus bet along with the ante bet, and then you toss out the final $10 to "stay alive". They ought to just stuff a vacuum cleaner hose into your pocket...
  • Late Surrender is the one rule that's worth much more to a caed counter than to a basic strategy player. Perfect basic strategy in a typical shoe game saves the player about 0.07%. To an AP with a 1-to-10 spread, it's worth between 0.20% to 0.25% depending upon the system used. To boot, it lowers your standard deviation and smooths out the bumps some, allowing to to play modestly higher units.

    To of the local casinos around home used to have late surrender, but scratched it. Some pit bosses explanations were;
  • Late Surrender is the one rule that's worth much more to a card counter than to a basic strategy player. Perfect basic strategy in a typical shoe game saves the player about 0.07%. To an AP with a 1-to-10 spread, it's worth between 0.20% to 0.25% depending upon the system used. To boot, it lowers your standard deviation and smooths out the bumps some, allowing to to play modestly higher units.

    Two of the local casinos around home used to have late surrender, but scratched it. Some pit bosses' explanations were;
    A) It was a sucker rule and we're not out to hurt you.
    B) Got too many complaints from other players saying that not taking
    your hits was messing up the cards.

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