Violating basic stragedy for a bigger advantage!
  • Although 80% of the time you should follow basic stragedy for the best way to play your hand there is still 20% of the time that you can violate basic stragedy and be right for doing so here are some examples.
    You are playing single deck and get dealt 2 7's against a 10 staying is the correct play.

    You are in a negative count and get a 12 vs a 4 hitting is a better play than standing because some of the cards that bust you are not available in the drawing cards.

    You are in a positive count and get a 16 vs a 10 staying is a good play.

    You are in a negative count and get an 11 vs a dealer 10 or ace hitting instead of doubling is the right play.

    There are about 30 plays that depend upon the count that can violate basic stragedy.
  • learningtocount said:
    There are about 30 plays that depend upon the count that can violate basic stragedy.


    I think there are actually around 180 practical plays that depend on the count. There are more than that but many of them are very rare and not worth very much. Almost every BS decision has an index where you would deviate.

    -Sonny-
  • Although I use around 50 indices when I play, I've run sims that show an increase in EV from +0.75% to just +0.76%, or 0.01% net by adding 10 more indices to the Illustrious 18 (shoe game).

    Would like to hear from Norm on this. Have you done any experimenting here?
  • The most improtant index plays are for plus 1 and minus 1 I wonder if you just knew those index play alone how much your starting advantage would be.
    When the count is minus 1 hit an 11 vs an Ace no matter how many decks are in use.
    There are many more index plays you can make.
  • learningtocount said:
    The most improtant index plays are for plus 1 and minus 1 I wonder if you just knew those index play alone how much your starting advantage would be.
    When the count is minus 1 hit an 11 vs an Ace no matter how many decks are in use.
    There are many more index plays you can make.



    +/-1 is not nearly so important as +2, +3 and +4 indices. Those are the ones where you have _BIG_ bets out and those are the ones where you need to play most accurately. The -1 indices are always with small bets out and there is nothing significant to be won/lost during those circumstances... As a matter of fact, I will most likely not be playing at -1 unless it is a SD/DD game. At a shoe, I'm off to the restroom or whatever at -1 and don't need negative indices.
  • One reason is sometimes you can't avoid playing in negative counts for 2 reasons one it arises suspecion if you are always leaving and coming back and two you might have started out the hand in a positive 2 count placed a bigger than normal bet by the time you are ready to make your decision you see that other players got big cards driving the count down to -2.

    Did you know that in an extremely negative count the player could actually have an advantage over the house. All though with penetration as it is today that is highly unlikely in today's game. An extreme example of that is that you know all the cards are 4 or less than you would always hit hard 17 and below. This would give you a tremendous advantage over the dealer.
  • All though 7,8,9 don't effect you overall all that much they can have an effect on a particular outcome of a particular hand. Especially when you are dealt a stiff of 12-16. Depending on what stiff you got these cards could help or hurt you. Lets say for instance you where dealt a 12 vs a 4. In a one or two deck game your decision on weather to hit or stand on this one could be deciced on how many 7,8,9 you see on other peoples hands regardless of the count be slightly positive or slightly negative! If you can see 2 hands of two cards each 1 card of 7,8,9 is the average you will see. If zero cards of 7,8,9's where used in two of the player hands next to me I think that hitting a 12 vs a 4 in a zero to a plus 1 count could be the right play it is usually the right play in a negative 1 count. If there is an abundance "2 or more" of 7,8,9 in the other players hands you are looking at 2 hands so for cards total you have to get to a much more negative count to hiting a 12 vs a 4 to be a justified play.
  • learningtocount said:
    The most improtant index plays are for plus 1 and minus 1 I wonder if you just knew those index play alone how much your starting advantage would be.
    When the count is minus 1 hit an 11 vs an Ace no matter how many decks are in use.
    There are many more index plays you can make.



    When the count is plus or minus 1 you have a minimum bet out there and the cost of not using an indice is small.
    When the count goes from +2 to higher, you now have much larger bet on the table and not using indices can cost you more. SSR, has it right.

    ihate17
  • learningtocount said:
    Although 80% of the time you should follow basic stragedy for the best way to play your hand there is still 20% of the time that you can violate basic stragedy and be right for doing so here are some examples.
    You are playing single deck and get dealt 2 7's against a 10 staying is the correct play.

    You are in a negative count and get a 12 vs a 4 hitting is a better play than standing because some of the cards that bust you are not available in the drawing cards.

    You are in a positive count and get a 16 vs a 10 staying is a good play.

    You are in a negative count and get an 11 vs a dealer 10 or ace hitting instead of doubling is the right play.

    There are about 30 plays that depend upon the count that can violate basic stragedy.


    The most what you can accomplish by playing index is to break even or have a slight edge. Very small edge indeed if you flat bet while having your bank at risk for nothing.
    You're better off with few index plays (Insurance, 16 vs. 9, 16 vs. T, 15 vs. T, 12 vs. 2,3,4 and if you have balls TT vs. 5,6 as a split) and bet more in pos or let bet ride in pos.
    Now you make some money and have more fun with less ROR.
    If you want to make big $$ you have to hassle the game. You have to pretend, con and make look like you chase and go all the way to the table limit.
  • Renzey said:
    Although I use around 50 indices when I play, I've run sims that show an increase in EV from +0.75% to just +0.76%, or 0.01% net by adding 10 more indices to the Illustrious 18 (shoe game).

    Would like to hear from Norm on this. Have you done any experimenting here?


    You lost me here. Why play 50 indices when you only gain 0.01%? OK, i understand that you said going from 18 to 28 indices gets you the 0.01%, but surely the additional 22 indices get less valuable as you go? So why bother?

    I agree that negative count indices are not as important, outside of the I 18, with two exceptions. Keep in mind I use KO. There are indices for not doubling 9 v 3 and 10 v 9. I think those are worth adding to your arsenal. Nobody likes losing a double, even for the minimum bet. And sometimes off the top of the shoe I bet more than my minimum as a cover play, and the count can easily then be negative.

    Another suggestion for KO players is to refine the doubling indexes based upon the full system values in the back of the book. You need to be extremely accurate when it comes to doubling down!
  • Knox -- I memorized 80 indices when I learned to play 30 years ago. Didn't know they'd be worth so little. And with the shoe game, more than 40 very seldom come into play.

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