some heat questions...
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if i were to buy in for 200$, and play 5$ units with a 1-5 or maybe 1-6 spread how much heat would i get at most casinos? i dont know if the one i will play at most sweats their money. the only thing i can think of that would help you find an answer is that its indian owned. i have played there 3 times (maybe 4, i dont remember) and i was flat betting each time. and the times i have played there ive seen people betting up to maybe like 100 a hand. and i dont think the pit even really payed attention, but i have heard "check play" a few times. also, doesnt check play mean come and see whats going on at the table pretty much or no?
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Wayne said:if i were to buy in for 200$, and play 5$ units with a 1-5 or maybe 1-6 spread how much heat would i get at most casinos? i dont know if the one i will play at most sweats their money. the only thing i can think of that would help you find an answer is that its indian owned. i have played there 3 times (maybe 4, i dont remember) and i was flat betting each time. and the times i have played there ive seen people betting up to maybe like 100 a hand. and i dont think the pit even really payed attention, but i have heard "check play" a few times. also, doesnt check play mean come and see whats going on at the table pretty much or no?
Any casino that flat bets a $5 bettor is a pure sweat shop. I think either you were so obvious and somehow embarrassed them or they are pure sweat. I live in So California and have hit about every Indian Casino that I thought was worth playing, from San Diego north to Santa Ynez and have never witnessed this and my bets run from $50 to over $500 and sometimes significantly higher. I would be interested in knowing what casino you are talking about.
Now, since you have been flat bet every time you go there, you are known and will continue facing a flat bet. Do you use a players card? If so, throw it away, wait a few months, return and see if they still know who you are. The card is about worthless for comps anyway at your bet level. If you do not use a card, they know your face, give them time to forget you but still there is the question of why you would want to play in a place that worries about a red chip player.
Checks play is generally called on $100 and higher bets, especially if the player has been playing for less. It does alert the pit that a bet raise has hit the table.
ihate17 -
they werent sweating me while i was playing. i figured i would be known as a flat betting "regular" after a while. i do have a card, but im not worried about being barred from that casino too much as laughlin is real close to me. i will stop using it tho. so i have no idea if they would sweat a red chipper, that was basically my question. and if it is ok to say the casino here, ill tell you, if not, just pm me and ill tell you there. i think i heard something about not naming casinos, but maybe that was just for special deals and what-not
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You were flat betting. I had thought that they had made you flat bet after you spread.
Every casino is different. As NYB said, some casinos will call checks play on a $25 bet and I have heard of it called on smaller bets at some little places also. That is first off a house procedure and does not necessarily mean sweat. The dealers are told to do this with certain bet amounts and they are just following this procedure. Most times the pit turns, looks and just goes about whatever he was doing before.
You can name a casino here in this instance. Generally if a casino has something special going on you might not want to name it and burn the game out. If there is a situation within a casino where someone from the casino reading your post could then ID you or another counter, you would never mention the casino, date, time and things like that.
Generally, you can just walk around a place and see what kind of action they get and what kind makes them nervous. For instance, you walk in and notice that most tables are $5 and most players are betting between 5-15, but at the one $25 table two suits are camped behind the guy who is betting $75, you know they are uncomfortable with his action and anything at that level or higher is going to bring attention to yourself. You walk into another casino with loads of different level tables, see people betting black chips and getting little attention. You know in this place, they are used to bigger action. So look around, look at what the people bet, look at both the table minimums and also the table max. If a $25 table is $25-$5,000 it means something compared to say Soboba (near you) where the table is $25-$500.
Then if you see a guy with a ton of chips, look around him. Is he being watched carefully, is someone trying to intimidate him from the pit?
Better yet, name the places where you are planning to play and people here will tell you if they handle your action well or not. I am not really familar with the games in Loughlin. I know in Vegas for instance, you could play $5-$30 at El Cortez and probably would get backed off in an hour without a good act, but you could play for your lifetime at many strip places and they would not care or even actually rate you.
ihate17 -
To expand, the MGM won't even take your player's card unless you are at a $25 table, or can convince them you are betting at least $25 per hand at a $10 table (which is not always easy to convince them of).
The old Barbary Coast would sweat you for just sitting down and playing betting the table min, if they happened to see you win a hand or two..
90% of this is about convincing anyone watching that you are an idiot. Because that is what 90% of the people in a casino look like. Standing out is the worst thing you can do. -
If you are playing red, why buy in for $200. I know it is not an unreasonable amount but most players at red chip tables will buy in with $100. If need be you can always buy in again.
Circumstances are constantly changing and sometimes a buy in can be used for cover when you want the appearance of steaming, when the count is high and your chips are low. You stand up, reach in your pocket, say something like "this is ridiculous, I can't win a hand", change another hundred and put a larger bet than you had before on the felt. It now looks like you are steaming but in fact you are just upping your bet via the count.
ihate17 -
Wayne said:thanks people. the casino is called the avi. and if you say buying in for 200 will bring attention, how about buying in for 50$ at a time? or should i leave it at 100$? if anyone has any info on the avi regarding blackjack i would really appreciate it.
I am not saying that it will bring attention to you. I am saying that buying in for less just might seem slightly more normal and give you a possible chance to look like a steamer later.
ihate17 -
If you buy in for more the pit will usually give you credit for making bigger bets and will comp you more money. Always buy in for $100 increments so the pit credits every chip you bought if you buy in for less than a $100 they don't keep that good of track of it. Plus the pit crew tends to tolerate bigger wins with bigger buy ins.
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There is only 1 exception to that rule if you have been kicked out of place and come back than you might want to avoid using the card. The benefits of using your card out weigh the risks. Using the card could bring 25% more value two your sessions when you are eatting for free, seeing concerts free of charge, and getting free rooms if you are on vacation.
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NYB said:Why would you stop using your players card? that would be like seeing a twenty dollar bill sitting on the road and not picking it up,because you are afraid there miht be a camera somewhere.
Simple reason: that's the easiest way to get burned as a card counter. If you ask around, the majority of the backoffs/barrings happen when you first buy in, when they take your player's card. The last time you played, you did something to attract attention. Since they have your name, they will take the time to have someone upstairs review the videa and use something like blackjack voice and evaluate your play to see if you were playing with a real advantage or not. If so, they will flag your player's club account and the next time you enter, you get deep-sixed. Without the card, you are just a "John Doe" and they will have to depend on someone recognizing your face if they later decide you are a personna non gratia.
If you are hustling comps, you have little choice. But if you are a serious card counter, most don't use their real names. I "swap" player's cards frequently with friends that don't play 21, so that if I get 'em into hot water they don't care since they don't play 21 anyway...
And we work out the comps out-of-sight. -
stainless steel rat said:Simple reason: that's the easiest way to get burned as a card counter. If you ask around, the majority of the backoffs/barrings happen when you first buy in, when they take your player's card. The last time you played, you did something to attract attention. Since they have your name, they will take the time to have someone upstairs review the videa and use something like blackjack voice and evaluate your play to see if you were playing with a real advantage or not. If so, they will flag your player's club account and the next time you enter, you get deep-sixed. Without the card, you are just a "John Doe" and they will have to depend on someone recognizing your face if they later decide you are a personna non gratia.
If you are hustling comps, you have little choice. But if you are a serious card counter, most don't use their real names. I "swap" player's cards frequently with friends that don't play 21, so that if I get 'em into hot water they don't care since they don't play 21 anyway...
And we work out the comps out-of-sight.
The guy is playing red and flat-betting.Give me a break.No casino in Southern Nevada is going to sweat him. You know that,or at least you should.At that level,a couple of free dinners and a free room is worth much more than the dollar or two profit he'll pull from a game. -
I usually play at $5 tables even though I start betting at $10; and depending on the cards, try to get up to $25 ASAP. Yes, even though the majority of players buy-in for an even $100, $200 isn't enough to raise an eyebrow and is probably more appropriate for starting bets of $10.
Some casinos; such as the Orleans, don't even enter you into the computer with a lesser buy-in, which is good enough reason for $200. (If you move around and try for a comp, it's good to be in the machine.) Other than that, I can't imagine where $50-$200 makes any difference, and I sure wouldn't want to play in a place were it does! T-2. -
ive used my card every time ive played there so far, and i dont think i have any points on my card yet. ill send it with my mother next time she goes up there to put it in a machine and see if ive got any points. is it possible that if im not gambling enough money they wont even bother to calculate it?
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NYB said:The guy is playing red and flat-betting.Give me a break.No casino in Southern Nevada is going to sweat him. You know that,or at least you should.At that level,a couple of free dinners and a free room is worth much more than the dollar or two profit he'll pull from a game.
More importantly, no casino is going to give him anything worthwhile in the way of comps if he flat-bets $5. Certainly not a "RFB type comp". However, I was speaking in the general sense of "to use or not use" with respect to the player's card. For an aspiring card counter, it's a risk. Of course, counting is a risk as well...
BTW I have been backed off at least twice in sawdust joints using a $5 unit, so it can happen. Not at the MGM. But then they won't rate a $5 player (in fact, a $5 player can hardly play at the MGM, I don't ever see anything less than $10 mins there, $25 when it gets crowded.) -
Table game comps are usually good for at least a year. At the Crystal Bay Club they are good forever. Slot points are usually good for a year.
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learningtocount said:Table game comps are usually good for at least a year. At the Crystal Bay Club they are good forever. Slot points are usually good for a year.
This is another example of you taking what happens in Reno and assuming it happens everywhere.Name me some Vegas casinos where table game comps are good for a year?How about in Laughlin? Atlantic City,maybe?Tunica?
Puerto Rico? -
stainless steel rat said:More importantly, no casino is going to give him anything worthwhile in the way of comps if he flat-bets $5. Certainly not a "RFB type comp". However, I was speaking in the general sense of "to use or not use" with respect to the player's card. For an aspiring card counter, it's a risk. Of course, counting is a risk as well...
BTW I have been backed off at least twice in sawdust joints using a $5 unit, so it can happen. Not at the MGM. But then they won't rate a $5 player (in fact, a $5 player can hardly play at the MGM, I don't ever see anything less than $10 mins there, $25 when it gets crowded.)
Again,thats simply not true. Especially where he is from. I have played less than three hours total at the Pioneer in Laughlin,yet get mailings for free rooms on a monthly basis.My biggest bet there was $10,but the PB happily comped me to a free buffet.At The Riverside,I played less than an hour betting $5-15 but just recieved a mailer inviting me to a free BJ tournament with 3 nights comped and a welcome buffet dinner.All I needed to get free nights offered from the Ramada was to sign up for their players card and check the box that I'm a veteran.
Plaza,Vegas Club,Wild West,El Cortez,Buffalo Bills and others will comp $5 bettors to rooms,if they play on a semi-regular basis.Terribles will hook you up with food,as will The Edgewater. -
NYB said:Again,thats simply not true. Especially where he is from. I have played less than three hours total at the Pioneer in Laughlin,yet get mailings for free rooms on a monthly basis.My biggest bet there was $10,but the PB happily comped me to a free buffet.At The Riverside,I played less than an hour betting $5-15 but just recieved a mailer inviting me to a free BJ tournament with 3 nights comped and a welcome buffet dinner.All I needed to get free nights offered from the Ramada was to sign up for their players card and check the box that I'm a veteran.
Plaza,Vegas Club,Wild West,El Cortez,Buffalo Bills and others will comp $5 bettors to rooms,if they play on a semi-regular basis.Terribles will hook you up with food,as will The Edgewater.
We are perhaps talking different levels of "comps". I'm not talking about one of those "come stay tuesday and wednesday nights for free" deals. I'm talking about "come out for the weekend, we'll pick up your room and food and provide you with some tickets to see "xxx" live..."
Betting nickles is not going to be very profitable for the casino, nor for the player with respect to comps. For the casinos that are working at being more accurate when rating players, this is only going to get worse, not bettter. -
NYB Ignore him. He is just pretending to be an AP and a player again, but he rarely plays. He made a one week trip to LV two years ago, but I doubt if he has played in a casino ten hours since then.
Wayne Listen to NYB and use your card. Everything he says about comps in your area is correct. I played the Laughlin area on a monthly basis from 03 to 06 and never had an official backoff playing everything from a ten dollar to twenty-five dollar plus unit. And yes, weekend comps and tix are readily available if you play on a regular basis.
Regards ..Grifter -
Grifter said:NYB Ignore him. He is just pretending to be an AP and a player again, but he rarely plays. He made a one week trip to LV two years ago, but I doubt if he has played in a casino ten hours since then.
Wayne Listen to NYB and use your card. Everything he says about comps in your area is correct. I played the Laughlin area on a monthly basis from 03 to 06 and never had an official backoff playing everything from a ten dollar to twenty-five dollar plus unit. And yes, weekend comps and tix are readily available if you play on a regular basis.
Regards ..Grifter
First, I have no idea what Laughlin has to do with this. If you back up to my _original_ post in this thread, there was no mention of any particular city or anything. Just a generic question about using a player's card. I gave specific advice about a player's card, which is that it is somewhat dangerous for a counter to use (at least to use one in his real name).
Second, how you know where/when I play is beyond me. I just came back from a week in Vegas, stayed at the MGM as usual. Saw Celine's show (wife wanted to see it before it closes down to be replaced by BM). Two weeks prior to that I played in Tunica for 3 days with a counting friend.
If you've played all over without getting backed off, fine. Either you have a great act, or are not very aggressive, or are just lucky. I know several that are not so lucky, or else not so non-aggressive. But just because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen to anybody. Personally I am not going to have _my_ driver's license scanned in and filed, where it is accessible by every employee in the casino. There's been plenty of examples of identity theft from such practices. Not to mention the danger of tripping someone's warning sensor and getting flagged as an advantage player.
Casino rooms are cheap enough that it is not difficult to make your own "comps" by playing aggressively, but doing it anonymously. More so in smaller venues like Tunica, or even in places like Vegas where good games are concentrated although there are bad games everywhere. -
Wayne mentioned several times he played at Avi,which is right outside Laughlin.
Even without being specfic to Laughlin,I explained how there were plenty of casinos in Vegas that comp smaller bettors.
My trip to Vegas Memorial Day will be three free nights(Sunday thru Tuesday,at a casino that normally gets about $75 a nite.) I'm getting $25 in food comps per day per my card,and card members can get two funbooks a month,each has a $5 matchplay and a $5 food comp)
By my math,thats $315 in comps that they are giving me.At the place that has the best low roller BJ in Vegas. A $5-10 bettor would need an incredible run to self-comp at that level.
PS- I do wish you and grifter would keep your differences limited to PMs.
PSS-Thats addressed to both of you,not just SSR. -
NYB said:At smaller casinos,I've heard "checks play" for as little as $25,if the player had been betting $5 before this.
At El Cortez, one of those Chinese lady dealers called out checks play on me when I only had a 4 X $5 = 20 bet out. I think she thought I had $25 out and I was ranging from 1-5 with a $5 min bet. Now that is paranoid!
LOL -
NYB said:The guy is playing red and flat-betting.Give me a break.No casino in Southern Nevada is going to sweat him. You know that,or at least you should.At that level,a couple of free dinners and a free room is worth much more than the dollar or two profit he'll pull from a game.
Sorry I happen to disagree with that statement based on past experience of flat betting $5 in Las Vegas at certain casinos. There are quite a few of sweaty casinos in Vegas. When I first started off counting for my first couple years and flat betting $5 and spreading 1-5, I was watched at a couple places. One place I was at the pit boss had the game stopped and they had me leave and I wasn't even up that much money. They went even so far to have security watch me cash out and leave. Talk about being paranoid.
Barbary Coast was a classic example. I doubt they still countinue to sweat play since HET purchased the place. They probably crapified all the 2D games now. That's their trade, to make everything crap.
I been to a few other places that had $5 and spread 1-5 and as soon as you put $25 on the bet circle they yell out 'checks in play'. It's freakin rediculous. I even specifically remember another incident at another place where me and my pal sat down and the dealer got so paranoid she made such a big deal about it and called the pit boss over to watch us play 2 or 3 hands. That was the funniest ever. She even got all huffy and puffy and smart and stern with us. I've also played at another place with $5 mins and they also were paranoid that if they suspected anything they would shuffle up. They even shuffled up when a new player entered. -
The heat that you get is from your bet spread and is not from your buy in. If you go from betting $5 to betting $25 on the next hand they might be suspicious of that. If you go from $25 to $5 that is usually better tolerated. If you parlay your money and go from $5 to $10 when the count is positive and you just won that is usually well tolerated as well.
Before I learned to count I had a wild bet spread at the Bonaza Casino and I got backed off using a crazy 1-20 bet spread. I didn't even no proper basic stragedy back than, just to show you the back of power of a crazy bet spread and a paranoid pit. -
Exactly, what you buy in for really doesn't matter. Especially if you are on a team and are playing with a portion of a bank roll, while another member could be playing at the same table with another portion of the BR. What you spread is totally a different thing. You spread according to what your total bankroll can withstand, not your buy in. The whole point being 1-5 spreads ARE watched at alot of places in Vegas. However there are a few places who don't sweat those spreads by red chippers. I'd say overall there are more that do sweat that kind of play.
I'd say your spread is the #1 thing that attracts heat. Now I've played with players that are capable of putting up a good 'act' and getting away with crazy spreads. I learned my lesson the first year I started counting. You have to somehow try to disguise your play the best you can. To me thats part of what you need to accomplish when counting. Counting is one thing, but counting and being able to get away with it is another thing in being successful. What good does counting do if when you get asked to leave after only playing a few rounds? Sometimes as a beginner you forget about that second step in that you have to be able to fully execute. You gotta have a plan. -
Considering that there are but a handful of places where you can even spread RED chips 1-5 since that implies a $5 minimum bet,I'm thinking you don't have all that much recent playing time in Southern Nevada.There are few places that will sweat any sort of Red chip action any longer.I'm just back from extended playing downtown and even the Vegas club has stopped sweating small timers. They just made the game unplayable.El Cortez stopped awhile ago.
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NYB said:Considering that there are but a handful of places where you can even spread RED chips 1-5 since that implies a $5 minimum bet,I'm thinking you don't have all that much recent playing time in Southern Nevada.There are few places that will sweat any sort of Red chip action any longer.I'm just back from extended playing downtown and even the Vegas club has stopped sweating small timers. They just made the game unplayable.El Cortez stopped awhile ago.
Correct, I haven't been there in 8 months plus I haven't downloaded any of the new reports yet. I'll be out to Vegas mid summer. I usually get all the reports a few weeks before I get set to go there. From all the message boards and forums I been getting little hints that much has changed. Are the changes for the worse drastic or is there only a few?
When you say El Co has stopped sweating small players, do you mean they now made their games unplayable also? Or do they just not care anymore?
Vegas Club haha! So now did they change their big sign out front that says something like "We offer the most liberal blackjack" ? -
No,I believe the DD game at el Cortez might be the best game around for small players.
They deal it face up,which gives you plenty of chances to interact with other players hands-buying pairs of aces,chipping in the difference when someone doubles for less,ect.I've played there extensively three trips now and never got a hint of heat,betting $3-25 and often letting my winning $25 bet ride.
Vegas Club isunplayable,even though they have the sign up calling it the Worlds most liberal game. -
NYB thanks for the report. I appreciate it. I was getting worried for a second that alot of good games went away. I'm in total suspense till I get the new CBJN in a few weeks.
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A few things:
A 1-5 bet spread is not that big of deal for low stakes. Limit your sessions to an hour or less and go from place to place and I just can't see you getting much heat. CBJN is great for that approach to map out your targets.
Rather than 1-5, try splitting into two hands. I have found that going from 1 unit to 2 x 3 units or 2 x 4 units is a great way to avoid the dreaded "checks play" announcement and statistically a more powerful approach. Many places require you to bet at least 2 units to play two hands, so you can just act like it is their fault to begin with--LOL.
I read the comments about betting more off the top and I agree that is smart, especially with a watchful pit. In counts that are not strongly positive or negative, you should be able to make medium sized bets in an almost random fashion that go a long way towards disguising your betting strategy.
I also like to employ what I call "streak betting". If I start off with say a 3 unit cover bet off the top, I'll let it ride as long as it is winning regardless of the count. If it goes negative I will act pissed when I lose and quickly lower my bet in a seemingly natural reaction. If the count is good I will keep out the larger bets with a comment like "I have to get it back." I think this type of psychology is a great way to satisfy the pit and dealer that your abilities are nothing special.
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