Base in cardcounting
  • Someone know what is the best base when I play blackjack counting cards?Wich base I should select without call atention of the casino personal?
  • Sitting at third base (or thereabouts) might give you a tiny advantage if you know a bunch of indices, otherwise every seat is the same from a card counter's perspective.

    -Sonny-
  • As Sonny said, the differences between seats really has no great significance, but in reading your question your greatest concern appears to be alerting casino personel.
    There is a myth that is strong amongst those who work for casinos that cardcounters sit at third base. There is some fact behind this myth, as many cardcounters do like third base, but I do not think sitting there ever singles you out as a counter.
    There are advantages to other positions that third base does not have.
    If you sit at third base and find you want to spread to two hands, it is harder than doing so compared to sitting in the middle of the table, as you only have one direction you can go too.
    I also believe there are more reads of dealer hole cards and top cards available from first base or near first base than there are from third base.

    Both third and first base offer more room for your chips, drinks and whatever else you might have by the table, while you may feel cramped in the middle.

    ihate17
  • Especially if the game is dealt face down that way I can sneak a peek at other players cards from the middle I can easily see two players hansd and adjust my play accordingly! I also think it is easier to look at the discard try to determine how many cards have been dealt.
  • Ditto. I prefer single-deck or double-deck, which are mostly hand-held.

    Sitting in the middle makes it easier to count all the cards when the dealer gets a 21 and everyone tosses their cards in. But more importantly, when making a playing decision, I can usually at least see the player's hands to either side of me assuming I am playing at a fairly crowded table.

    I've always avoided 3rd base simply because it seems that everyone believes that counters prefer 3rd base and I have seen a few examples where the pit seemed to sweat 3rd more than other positions when he's winning.
  • I prefer third always. It gives me control over the dealer's cards as me and my wife usually play 3 or more hands at a time. So the position, if you play this way, is crucial to control the outcome for most of your hands. As the casinos I play in do not have hole cards, just a single card and the dealer hits right after the last player stays or busts. But if no other seat is vacant and am playing alone, I sit at the first base. It's easier to predict which cards will go to you right after the last game played. And that's the seat that's least affected by the dealer's hole card or the dealer's cards' final outcome.
  • Appetite said:I prefer third always. It gives me control over the dealer's cards

    But how do you predict the next card out of the deck? Controlling the dealer’s hole card is useless unless the cards are marked or you are peeking.

    Appetite said:It's easier to predict which cards will go to you right after the last game played.

    Why do you say that?

    Appetite said:And that's the seat that's least affected by the dealer's hole card or the dealer's cards' final outcome.

    That’s not true at all. The dealer’s hand affects everyone the same. If the dealer gets a BJ, the person at first base will not have any advantage over the other players. When the dealer busts, all remaining players benefit equally. In that sense all seats are the same.

    -Sonny-
  • stainless steel rat said:
    ............I've always avoided 3rd base simply because it seems that everyone believes that counters prefer 3rd base and I have seen a few examples where the pit seemed to sweat 3rd more than other positions when he's winning.


    SSR - Are you sure that was 'sweat' or just the fact that 3rd base is simply the best place for a PB to get close to the table.....No shoe in the way for shoe games and shoe or pitch it allows the PB to better observe how the dealer is handling the cards and cheques.

    Then add the fact that PB's get bored and the fact that some of them are simply gregarious, and they gravitate to third base of a table. I played primarily third base for over 40 years and found out it is a double edged sword. The upside, especially if you are a frequent/known player, is that you get to schmooz the PB, talk about his wife and kids, his Jerry tie, etc. and pick up a few bennies. The downside of course is that Murphy's Law says that same PB always seems to come over just when the count goes positive and you want to raise your bet.

    Just something to think about.......I have found that it is the "person" who draws the heat, not his position at the table.

    Regards.......Grifter
  • If there is a preference in position it is likely related to your comfort level, your rhythm. If your preference is 3rd in shoe games, it may be more related to the way you count cards and not the tiny advantage in cards seen. Pitch games have a completely different need as far as best position. Best position will depend on the configuration of players in pitch games. Where are they sitting and what can I see? When I started playing pitch games again I had to re-learn those games. In short, I had little or no rhythm.

    In my "neck of the woods", players,dealers and pit are sports fans. Horses or round ball and because of that, I don't ware my team shirt. They will talk your leg off otherwise.
  • Appetite said:
    I prefer third always. It gives me control over the dealer's cards as me and my wife usually play 3 or more hands at a time. So the position, if you play this way, is crucial to control the outcome for most of your hands. As the casinos I play in do not have hole cards, just a single card and the dealer hits right after the last player stays or busts. But if no other seat is vacant and am playing alone, I sit at the first base. It's easier to predict which cards will go to you right after the last game played. And that's the seat that's least affected by the dealer's hole card or the dealer's cards' final outcome.



    How can you possibly know what card the dealer is going to draw and make a playing decision to use that information to your advantage? If you make a bad 3rd base decision, then a good one (according to BS) you will find that about 1/2 your bad decisions turn out favorably for you. Ditto for the good decisions. In short, all you can do is use the count to play correctly, you have no chance of influencing the dealer's upcoming cards at all...
  • Grifter said:
    SSR - Are you sure that was 'sweat' or just the fact that 3rd base is simply the best place for a PB to get close to the table.....No shoe in the way for shoe games and shoe or pitch it allows the PB to better observe how the dealer is handling the cards and cheques.

    Then add the fact that PB's get bored and the fact that some of them are simply gregarious, and they gravitate to third base of a table. I played primarily third base for over 40 years and found out it is a double edged sword. The upside, especially if you are a frequent/known player, is that you get to schmooz the PB, talk about his wife and kids, his Jerry tie, etc. and pick up a few bennies. The downside of course is that Murphy's Law says that same PB always seems to come over just when the count goes positive and you want to raise your bet.

    Just something to think about.......I have found that it is the "person" who draws the heat, not his position at the table.

    Regards.......Grifter



    A couple of notes.

    (1) good point about 3rd base, although I would suppose that 1st base is just as handy to the pit except that is the "shoe side" so maybe they avoid that. I can't claim to be certain about that.

    (2) I also agree that most "sweat" comes from what the player does. Unfortunately, that sometimes includes nothing more than winning as I discovered at the coast about 2 years ago.

    My vague "feeling" is that if all else is equal between two players, 3rd base seems to be something that tips the scale to "watch 'im, he's up to something". Whether there are other factors at play, it's hard to say. I never sit there unless forced to, and if that happens it is usually a shoe where I am in and out quickly anyway...
  • Wow!
    Grifter and SSR are almost being civil to each other.
    Praise the Lord.
  • stainless steel rat said:
    A couple of notes.

    (1) good point about 3rd base, although I would suppose that 1st base is just as handy to the pit except that is the "shoe side" so maybe they avoid that. I can't claim to be certain about that.........


    It is just as "handy", but the PB does not have as clear a view of the dealer's right hand.......cards are dealt right handed, and more importantly all chips in and out of the dealer's chip tray are made with the right hand.

    Grifter
  • I enjoy reading posts that keep back a final knock-out punch knowing the Tells of his opponent. It's nice to see we can disagree and comment with well placed words.
  • Has anyone ever heard of this method? Is there anything to it? I was looking on the interent yesterday for a good blackjack practice game and came across his site offering to sell his "system".
    Thanks for any input.
  • Sonny said:


    But how do you predict the next card out of the deck? Controlling the dealer’s hole card is useless unless the cards are marked or you are peeking.



    Why do you say that?



    That’s not true at all. The dealer’s hand affects everyone the same. If the dealer gets a BJ, the person at first base will not have any advantage over the other players. When the dealer busts, all remaining players benefit equally. In that sense all seats are the same.

    -Sonny-


    I shuffletrack sirs. Not just count. I take note of the particular clumpings of different cards, like picture cards, aces, 2/3, 4/5. 6/7/8 and memorize where they are probably positioned in the newly shuffled shoe. Predicting is simply basing on my memory where the clumps are for that particular sets of cards. Predictions aren't really accurate but has worked for me since. I play not on a personal effort to improve my hands but to bust the dealer's, for a win-all situation. that is because I bet on other players' hands as well when my count is good and is to my advantage.


    Yes, everybody is affected by the dealer's hand. But the first base has an advantage if you shuffletrack and find that the clumps shall comprise of the next cards the dealer shall draw on the next game. I didn't mean that the first base will be independent of the outcome from the dealer's hand. But the effect is least, if other hands follow yours. It is free from the misjudgement of other players who may not play right, and pull a card that's supposed to be yours in advantage.
  • stainless steel rat said:
    How can you possibly know what card the dealer is going to draw and make a playing decision to use that information to your advantage? If you make a bad 3rd base decision, then a good one (according to BS) you will find that about 1/2 your bad decisions turn out favorably for you. Ditto for the good decisions. In short, all you can do is use the count to play correctly, you have no chance of influencing the dealer's upcoming cards at all...


    I respect all your skills sirs. Not the type to insist. But I am just relating circumstances that I've been in wherein I most often control the dealers' next cards through proper play and sometimes, odd deviations from the BS. In effect, I even have to sacrifice some hands in order to save the most of my bet spreads. I play multiple hands, sirs. And I bet evenly on each. So the need for a majority win if a dealer's bust is inevitable. Many card counting groups/syndicates from Malaysia, Singapore, Macau and Hongkong are using the same methods sirs.
  • stock_master_man said:
    Has anyone ever heard of this method? Is there anything to it? I was looking on the interent yesterday for a good blackjack practice game and came across his site offering to sell his "system".
    Thanks for any input.


    No offense to whoever this guy is. But common sense tells me, that whoever is selling his system, may not be making money at all. And so it goes to say, why buy the system that doesn't make money? The big bucks are in the application of an effective system not in selling it.
  • Appetite said:I shuffletrack sirs. Not just count. I take note of the particular clumpings of different cards, like picture cards, aces, 2/3, 4/5. 6/7/8 and memorize where they are probably positioned in the newly shuffled shoe. Predicting is simply basing on my memory where the clumps are for that particular sets of cards. Predictions aren't really accurate but has worked for me since.

    Shuffle tracking is a very powerful technique, but it does have its limitations. It is not meant to predict exactly when a certain card is going to be dealt. Instead it is used to follow packets of cards through the shuffle. These packets can be used to make very accurate betting decisions, but they can be very dangerous when used for playing decisions.

    It sounds like you are using shuffle tracking to predict the exact location of cards and altering your play based on that prediction. That is really not what shuffle tracking is designed to do. In order to get that type of accuracy you would need to use sequencing, flashing, steering or any other reading type of technique. I suggest that you only use your shuffle tracking skills to make betting decisions and maybe a few close-call playing decisions (like 16 vs. 10). I would only make more advanced playing decisions if I had complete confidence in the segment and was using the appropriate NRS true count calculation.

    -Sonny-
  • Very correct Sir Sonny. But if I have memorized a packet comprising of an actual and exact sequence, I use it to my advantage in betting as well as in controlling the dealer's hand. Not very good at explaining how I do it actually, until one sees how I play.
  • Appetite said:
    Very correct Sir Sonny. But if I have memorized a packet comprising of an actual and exact sequence, I use it to my advantage in betting as well as in controlling the dealer's hand. Not very good at explaining how I do it actually, until one sees how I play.


    How do you know this "packet" doesn't get split during the riffles? That's what makes it so dangerous to use this for playing decisions as Sonny mentioned. Following a small slug of cards through the riffles is not that exact a science. It would be quite easy to imagine that this would wipe out any edge gained from just tracking the slug...
  • stainless steel rat said:
    How do you know this "packet" doesn't get split during the riffles? That's what makes it so dangerous to use this for playing decisions as Sonny mentioned. Following a small slug of cards through the riffles is not that exact a science. It would be quite easy to imagine that this would wipe out any edge gained from just tracking the slug...


    That is the science of Shuffle Tracking Sir SSR. You see the cards in a series, memorize and track where it goes. It would be almost unimaginable to say that one has tracked the exact location where this packet is. But believe me, sirs, with practice, one gets so used to it that the variations in timing when that certain packet comes out will just be one or two cards away in accuracy. One can even bring the rich part of the shoe forward, if you are the one to cut the newly shuffled shoe. Specially useful in cases wherein, the house takes action on you by cutting half shoe or more in a 6D or 8D game, allowing you to play conveniently even in this condition. I usually track an unusual series packet. say a clumping of 7 or more picture cards, or aces, or any value at that, that were dealt during the previous shoe.
  • Appetite said:
    That is the science of Shuffle Tracking Sir SSR. You see the cards in a series, memorize and track where it goes. It would be almost unimaginable to say that one has tracked the exact location where this packet is. But believe me, sirs, with practice, one gets so used to it that the variations in timing when that certain packet comes out will just be one or two cards away in accuracy. One can even bring the rich part of the shoe forward, if you are the one to cut the newly shuffled shoe. Specially useful in cases wherein, the house takes action on you by cutting half shoe or more in a 6D or 8D game, allowing you to play conveniently even in this condition. I usually track an unusual series packet. say a clumping of 7 or more picture cards, or aces, or any value at that, that were dealt during the previous shoe.


    I understand how ST works, I've been doing a basic form of it for several years since I also count cards. But I realize that you are not going to track 2-3-4-5 cards through a typical casino shuffle, with enough accuracy to depend on a specific card going to a specific place on the table. The human eye just isn't that accurate. Even the old shuffle-tracking computer that Vegas banned was not quite that good. Good but not _that_ good...
  • stainless steel rat said:
    I understand how ST works, I've been doing a basic form of it for several years since I also count cards. But I realize that you are not going to track 2-3-4-5 cards through a typical casino shuffle, with enough accuracy to depend on a specific card going to a specific place on the table. The human eye just isn't that accurate. Even the old shuffle-tracking computer that Vegas banned was not quite that good. Good but not _that_ good...


    Very correct Sir SSR. Not THAT accurate the human eye, I agree. I do miss sometimes, but quite effective more often times. It takes a couple of shoes to set the clumpings though. I wouldn't know where to attribute this skill I have developed in shuffle tracking, either from my experiences or from extraordinary human capabilities. I'd like to clear out that probable notion on supernatural causes. No such things. Lol.

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