Surrender
  • I'm curious what the general consensus is on Surrender, when available. BS doesn't really cover this, least not the tables I use. I myself have never used Surrender. Last time at Foxwoods, elderly gentleman next to me seemed to use it just about every other hand.

    Of course, I realize there are probably different views on this within this board, but that's what makes it so educational here!
  • To me, surrendering, when available, is an important element of basic strategy. Why not use it when you can reduce your losses on high percentage losing hands. You do, however, need to know exactly when to surrender a hand. As you mentioned, some players abuse it by surrendering hands that, according to BS, should be hit. Be sure you are using the correct tables for the game you are playing. A lady sat next to me once who jeered at me for using surrender. She said, "I'm here to play. I'm not chicken." She doesn't understand that proper use of surrender will reduce her losses and ultimately increase her net winnings. If your goal is to make money playing Blackjack you must first MASTER Basic Strategy. This INCLUDES using the surrender option properly. I learned using the tables at blackjackinfo.com.
  • jm2552, surrender is definately part of BS, it just isn't offerend in the HitOrStand game. You should definitely use surrender. Surrender 15v10 and 16v9,10,A. (Split 88v10)

    If the dealer forgets to check her hole card, surrender 5-7,12-17vA and 14-16v10. Surrender 88v10,A.
  • JM... by not using Surrender, you have increased the house edge to approximately 0.4%, consider that when used correctly, the house edge is about 0.33% when using Basic.

    N&B
  • None of the mid-west casinos I go to offer surrender and I'm curious
    about the rule variations that you guys see that allows casinos to offer
    this player perk. What must you give up if anything?
  • Only half your bet! You surrender (give up) half your bet so you don't have to play out your hand and possibly lose the whole thing. Think about 16v10: 7 cards will bust you. The dealer likely has a 10 underneath, so, of the remaining 5 cards that won't bust you, only one will beat the dealer, one will push, and the other three will lose. Yuck! Give up half your bet and get it over with.

    So -7/13+1/13+0-3/13 = -0.69 = approx EV

    I'm surprised more casinos don't offer it. For the uninformed, it can be a very bad play (for the players, anyway), and for the occasional savy player, it will cost the casino very little.
  • No, I mean what do you give up in game rules? Surrender is .02-.10
    depending on the number of decks,etc. Best I can remember in 8 deck
    its value is .10 if H17. Is that about it or does things vary even more?
  • There is one aspect of surrender someone could help me on. Why not surrender 8,8 vs. 9,10, & A? Do you still come out better by splitting?
  • Thanks guys, for the info. Mr. Ed, you offered exactly what I was looking for, which hands to surrender on. Thanks.

    And Nickels, your stat about the house edge is very interesting and has made up my mind. I will adjust accordingly.


    PS: For Christmas, bought my wife tix to see Rod Stewart at Mohegan Sun in March. Maybe (hopefully!) my afternoon playing will erase the cost of the tix!
  • PJ, better to split 88v9,10,A than to surrender. With an 8, you could catch a 2 or 3, and head for a 20 or 21. You could catch a 9, 10 or A and end up with 17, 18, or 19. If you get an 8, you can split again. With 4,5,6 or 7 you get another chance. Remember, the dealer only has a 4/13 chance to pull a 10 underneath; due to hole card checking, you know the card under the A is NOT a ten. The situation is MUCH better than hitting a 16.

    Splitting 88v9,10,A is still a bad hand, but the EV is better than -0.50.
  • Thanks, Mr. Ed. I knew there was a good answer. I'll just keep on splitting them 8's!
  • Actually according to BS when Surrender rule is available for a multi-deck DAS SA DA S17 you're SUPPOSED to surrender against a 10 when you have 8/8!!

    Why split 2 potential LOSERS when you can get half the money you back you deserve?!

    You need to review the charts.
  • Bug, the first book I ever read on beginner's BJ said the same. However, I have yet to see a strategy chart showing surrender 8/8. They all show split against everything! Even when surrender is allowed. Aces and eights always split, they say! But, the mathematical geniuses have worked it out. I guess the EV ratios don't lie.
  • Have to side w/PJ there Bug.
    Split loses ~47.5%, Surr. loses 50%, H/S lose ~53.5%.

    6 deck game example. But I see your point in terms of $$$ lost. The split loses 47.5% of twice (or up to 4x) the initial wager, whereas the Surrender option loses 50% of the single original wager.

    I hate snowmen against a 10!

    N&B
  • I, too, hate splitting 88v10. BUT at a +2 count, the correct move is to surrender, thank God.

    Also, surrender 88vA in a h17 game (also surrender 17vA!?!)
  • Ed that brings up a VERY interesting point about DHS17 games. I think for that very reason (SURR 17 vs. ACE) Nevada in general has not allowed SURR. for their DHS17 games.

    Are there any LV casinos currently offering DHS17 with Late Surrender?
    How about 2 or more decks? I don't recall seeing anying listed at any of the free postings of LVC game rules. I think its rather slim pickins for that rule combo.

    N&B

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