Jackass of the table.
  • Now I officially call the hand "12 vs dealer 3" the "jackass hand". Every time I hit it, the whole table look at me like I am some sort of crazy or stupid person, better yet, a lot of times I ended up getting a 10 and the dealer pulls a 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8 and beat the whole table, people who are better educated started whispering to each other, and the rest of the table just started cursing.

    It also seems that most tables I sat down, there is always one "expert" who likes to give you advises and blame his losses on you or some other player. The worst part is, sometimes no matter how perfect you play, you just keep getting bad cards and lose, that gives the "expert" extra opportunity to bash you. There were these two guys who are apparently new to the game but acting all smart and all, they stay on 12 vs 10 and hit 15 vs 9, and I happen to be sitting at the end of the table and get lots of stiff hands and break, they blame every bad hand on me and sadly I am the one who lost the most at the table. By the time I quit they were like " finally the jackass is gone, let's start winning again..."

    The more I play blackjack, the more I realized how important is to play with knowledgeable and educated players. It's true mathmatically the bad players don't hurt your chances, but they hurt your experience and they ruin the fun for you. Nobody likes to be blamed on some non-sense crap and nobody likes to be called SOB, Jackass or whatever you can think of. When you sit at a good table, you just don't want to leave because people understand your moves and compliment your play, that's very relaxing and encouraging. If a player knows to hit 12 vs 3, he is already a much better player (unless he is a counter in certain situations)

    Maybe next time before I sit down, I should ask everybody at the table " do you hit or stand with a 12 against 3 ?"
  • That's funny, just last weekend some bozo commented on me hitting 12 vs. 3, and he wasn't even playing, just watching his girlfriend play.

    Ever notice how these "experts" only tell you what you should have done after the cards are dealt? I'm thinking I want to challenge them to tell me what cards are coming before they're dealt.

    Good luck finding educated players to play with. I can't afford to play in the high stakes area yet, but I've watched, and they're not much better up there.

    Just keep playing the way you know you should play, and try not to let it get to you. (Lame advice, I know.)
  • Yeah, I totally agree. Out of all the times I've played BJ, I still have not counted one time where someone plays flawlessly. I thought only 90% of players dont play flawless BS? It seems to me that 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% dont!! I'm the only one that ever plays right all the time and I have now quit observing the stupidity of moves the other players are doing as it just gets frustrating.

    Escarem: Next time you play and they give you trouble, just say, "You play YOUR hands, I'll play mine. Dont tell me how to play" and see what they say. Usually those uneducated bastards just shut up because lets face it, IT IS your money!
  • Nice post, Seven. I like your idea of asking if they hit 12 v 3. LOL!

    I personally enjoy playing in the morning. Less people at the tables, hence less a**holes. If i'm playing while wife and I are out just to have fun, nighttime is fine. But to try and increase the figures on the bank deposit slip, I'd rather have mornings. And you definitely play better with coffee rather than alcohol!

    As far as what to tell these "knowledgeable" players, how about: "There's plenty of tables where I'm not sitting. Knock yourself out".

    Thanks for your good post.

    John
  • Funny, it seems here in the NE corner, we don't have that monopoly. But we do get funny looks at hitting 12 vs. a 2 !!!, and outrage for 12 vs. 3 and an absolutely puzzled look if we hit 10-2 vs. a 4. But go ahead hit that 12 vs. a 5, they don't care!! Now THATS crazy. MAROOOOONS.

    N&B
  • Thanks for posting everybody! Glad to see I am not the only one out there. Bug you are doing an extremely great job at playing flawless BS. I know it's very difficult to play flawless, there always will be some little things which keeps you from playing the way you should, and I haven't seen a flawless player myself neither. I too need to work on my BS from time to time...

    I have played at $25 tables few times and those people are better players, but their large bets obviously are keeping them away from the correct moves. They know they should hit on 16 vs 10 but they just can't make their fingers to scratch the table when there are 4 green chips in front of them.

    I even like to play with beginners, because they have no clue what is going on and they sure don't give you funny looks when you hit 12 vs 3. It's all these self-claimed "experts" I hated the most. They learned a little basic strategy, they learned 2,3,4,5,6 are bust cards and they stop there and consider themselves experts. The easiest way to tell a good player from a bad one is how he/she plays soft hands and splits. 90% of the players I have seen don't know how to play correct soft hands and splits. They stand on A6 vs 9 and double on A2 vs 2 and split whenever they can.

    I am having some extremely bad luck for the past few sessions. I lost $2000 which puts me right back at $5 tables. For the first time in my life I saw the dealer made three blackjacks and two 21s in a row, and countless 20s which pushed all my 20s and ate me alive... The good thing is it made me a lot stronger emotionally.
  • It's been my experience that if you're playing BS, no matter how much of a novice table you're at, they pick up on the fact that you know what you're doing and don't really squawk too much. After a while you can even couint on it -- when somebody gets a "tweener" decision, all eyes at the table will shoot at you, as if to say "What should he do." What amazes me is how many people really don't know how to play even though, from talking to them, they're no strangers to the casino.
    But I'm dead-solid convinced (see my Crazy Night posting) that bad plays have no effect on your game.
  • SH said:
    It's been my experience that if you're playing BS, no matter how much of a novice table you're at, they pick up on the fact that you know what you're doing and don't really squawk too much. After a while you can even couint on it -- when somebody gets a "tweener" decision, all eyes at the table will shoot at you, as if to say "What should he do." What amazes me is how many people really don't know how to play even though, from talking to them, they're no strangers to the casino.
    But I'm dead-solid convinced (see my Crazy Night posting) that bad plays have no effect on your game.

    Having said that, can your own occasional bad play have that much affect on your own game?
  • Mike: You making bad plays and the Jock next door doing the same,
    are two different things. Whatever he does can not help you to know
    what you can't know. But, when you make a bad play, you are altering
    the odds in the wrong direction and you know that you have screwed-up.

    Ray
  • Mike said:

    Having said that, can your own occasional bad play have that much affect on your own game?


    Well, uh, uh, ... what Ray said.
  • " I have played at $25 tables few times and those people are better players, but their large bets obviously are keeping them away from the correct moves. They know they should hit on 16 vs 10 but they just can't make their fingers to scratch the table when there are 4 green chips in front of them."

    AHHHhhh therein lies the rub... no self confidence! I also notice by that quote that Late Surrender is NOT allowed where you play. Here's an additional point from the land of late surrender... most people here don't use it. I see much of the combination NO SURRENDER 16, and NO HIT 12.

    N&B
  • Mike, lets say somebody plays 95% (19 out of 20) of their hands correctly. For 80 hands (lets call that one hour) they've now misplayed four hands. Now one little four hour session and all of a sudden they've screwed up 16 times. In theory, each time you misplay a hand you give a little money back to the casino, and so it makes a huge difference when you misplay your own hands over time.

    In my opinion, I'm thankful for bad players. The casinos rely on bad players to bring them a nice return on their blackjack games, if everyone played a perfect game then the casinos would have to change the rules to give themselves more of an advantage off the top - or even worse, they'd get rid of them and use the floor space for slots!!

    Unfortunately for good players you often have to take crap from people who are largely clueless. For me, unless the person is overly insulting I just sit there and take it, since its near impossible to try and explain anything about the game to these people because they "know how to play, and don't need any of your advice thank you very much." Last time I was at the casino some lady was giving me crap for hitting 12 against dealer 2. On the very next hand she took insurance (dumb!), and couple of hands later she stood pat on a soft-17. Un-friggin-believable.
  • Nothing gets close to 12 vs 4 if your playing 3rd. Ive seen 2-3 players
    leave over that one. Also, if this jackass is giving you a hard time, offer
    a suggestion on good books, if he ask why, then tell him it will teach
    him how to play. You'll get lots of laughs out of that, but make sure you
    are bigger than he is.............................Honestly, your best bet is to ignore the bastard and let the game proceed, high blood pressure and all.

    Ray
  • I was at a table a few months ago where the guy at 3rd hit 12 against dealer 4 and after the dealer made a 21 the other players wanted him castrated. Without giving away the fact that I was counting and he had in fact made the correct play for the count, I tried to come to the guy's rescue and explain 12 vs 4 is a very, very close play and hitting is not as terrible as one may think. Didn't matter... the guy next to me had been "playing for 20 years" and I didn't know what I was talking about and blah, blah, blah. Funning thing about blackjack, the casino is filled with people who've been playing for 20 years and yet know very little about the game.

    Another thing I see on a regular basis is people asking the dealer for advice, or even the dealer offering it on their own. Don't listen! People tend to take the dealer's word as gospel but my observation is very few dealers know a perfect basic strategy.
  • I've noticed that a few here are posting 12 vs. 4...

    Please!, there is ONE correct "12", and thats 10-2 vs. a dealer 4.

    The 9-3, 8-4, and 7-5 are all STAND. 6-6 SPLITS.

    When you play 8 decks, ALL 12's STAND vs. dealer 4. But with 6 or fewer decks it is CORRECT basic strategy to HIT 10-2 vs. dealer 4. None of the other 12's, just the 10-2.

    N&B
  • Nickels_n_Bullets said:
    I've noticed that a few here are posting 12 vs. 4...

    Please!, there is ONE correct "12", and thats 10-2 vs. a dealer 4.

    The 9-3, 8-4, and 7-5 are all STAND. 6-6 SPLITS.

    When you play 8 decks, ALL 12's STAND vs. dealer 4. But with 6 or fewer decks it is CORRECT basic strategy to HIT 10-2 vs. dealer 4. None of the other 12's, just the 10-2.

    N&B


    I've always known it as ANY 12 except the 6-6 which you should obviously SPLIT. Furthermore, Renzey never specified that it is specifically the 10-2 hand that you should employ ADVANCED BASIC STRATEGY on, just "12". BTW, it's only correct BS to hit 10-2 (12)v4 WHEN THERE ARE AS MANY BABIES AS THERE ARE 10'S displayed on the board. Otherwise, the correct play against 12 is if you STAND against dealer 4.

    Who all agrees with me?
  • Nickels_n_Bullets said:


    When you play 8 decks, ALL 12's STAND vs. dealer 4. But with 6 or fewer decks it is CORRECT basic strategy to HIT 10-2 vs. dealer 4. None of the other 12's, just the 10-2.

    N&B


    Nickels, I wasn't aware of this variation. I've been standing on all 12 v 4. You're from CT aren't you? Are Mohegan and Foxwoods 8 or 6 decks?

    John (Not being lazy, but having some DSL trouble tonight, or I'd look at their websites to find out)
  • Yeah, I dont think he is correct in his statement about 10-2 being the ONLY type of "12" you'd normally hit on against a 4 on a 6-deck shoe.
  • Taken in context, 12, 10-2 are the same when talking about a nit-wit
    telling all how to play, and should be viewed as such. Hitting 10-2 vs 4
    is not correct in six deck shoe games unless you know something other
    than B/S.

    Ray
  • Also,I might add, 7-5,8-4,etc should not hit 4 if you know B/S and hand
    comp. The index for 12 vs 4 is "0"(hit) and the 12's described indicate a
    more pos. count and therefore a "stand" position. It's a question of how
    much you know about the remaining cards.
  • Ray - I think Nickels is talking about the "Dr Pepper" (10-2-4 ). That has been around 'forever', and I think Renzey mentions it in his book. You hit 10-2 vs 4 in one-six deck games......Grif'
  • OK, I'm a dedicated (and progressive) BS man, but this is a new on me. If your 12 is a 10-2, you hit against 14? I assume it has something to do with you having a face card. But it's still only one face card from the entire shoe? Even if you're counting, can one face card have that much effect on the count. I'm not arguing. Most of the people on this board have forgotten more blackjack than I know. But, if anybody can help, I am having trouble understanding the logic.
  • Grifter, yes I understand 10-2-4 hit is the proper play based on cards
    showing vs cards available. However, this is B/S plus hand comp rather
    than just B/S which in 6 deck is a stand. What would most people do
    with 9-3 vs 4 and why? Very interesting(six deck, B/S and hand comp)

    Ray
  • SH, It seems no one is going to answer my question so I'll just
    try to answer yours. When you have 7-5, 8-4 or 9-3 some of the
    cards that you can use are in play so you stand in a six deck game.
    10-2 vs 4 does not have all these cards in play, example 9+12=21,
    8+12=20, etc so you hit. Yes this is very close, but all those close
    calls add up in the long run.

    Ray
  • Ray/SH - We are talking about three things at the same time here regarding 10/2 vs 4. Maybe we are all saying about the same thing, but here is my take on it.
    1. Using a Count: Hit at 2. BS + Hand Comp: Hit if 10’s showing are equal to, or more than 2/3/4/5’s. (ignore Bughouse post above, he has it backwards).
    3. Basic Strategy: (Ray, this is where we differ). I hate to bring this up because it might “muddy the waters” for a lot of newer players, but IMHO:
    a. Stand with 9/3, 8/4, and 7/5 vs 4
    b. Hit with 10/2 vs 4 (The Doctor Pepper Play)
    c. Huh? A lot of people are saying…..It is because the EV’s are different for the first three (a) than 10/2 (b), even though they are all “12’s”…….The difference is very, very small, but if you want every tiny edge then make the distinction in your BS play.

    Notes:
    1. Generic BS says this is a hit hand, because if you take the totals of the EV’s for 10/2, 9/3, 8/4, and 7/5 the composite result would be a “hit”.
    2. Personally, if I were a pure BS player, I would simply play this as a “hit” hand.
    3. I am almost positive Renzey explains the Dr. Pepper in his book, but I don’t have mine here……and I’m sure if he does, he explains it much better than I just did.

    Regards…..Grifter
  • Furthermore, consider these four players(six deck game):

    #1 Knows B/S only and stands on 10-2 vs 4(1st round)
    #2 Knows B/S and hand comp, he hits 10-2 vs 4(2nd round)
    #3 Knows B/S, hand comp, bd cntg,he stands on 10-2 vs 4(3rd round)
    #4 Is a cd counter, he hits 10-2 vs 4(4th round)

    Who,if any, made the mistake? No player made a mistake because his
    actions were based on the extent of his knowledge. No matter how
    strange this example may seem, it's just the way the cookie crumbles.

    Ray
  • Grifter I think we only differ on item #2, read very carefully and
    understand that hand comp differs with "board counting". What I'm
    saying is in Dr. Peper it is the idividual cards showing and not an
    imbalance in high/low cards that is the key to undestanding Dr. P.
  • Ray - Got it, "reading" your hand only.....BTW, nice post on "nobody's wrong" above......Excellent point......Grif'
  • WOW, sorry about the can-o-worms. I used Eric Farmer's Blackjack v5.0 Analyzer to come up with the results that verified the Dr. Pepper play is indeed a HIT, while all the other 12's are a stand. (right-on Grif, its an oldie but a goodie)

    Now the bad news, for BS only play, overall the 12's are stand vs. a dealer 4, but the one play 10-2-4 is HIT. As RAY points out quite correctly, when you have 10-2 vs. a dealer 4 none of these three cards helps the player. When you have the others (9-3,8-4, and 7-5) you already hold a card you need in order to make a standing hand, and have less of a chance to draw another one. This is based on another old rule for 1-2 decks "What you see, you don't get."

    For the 1 to 6-deck game S17, expect the 10-2-4 play to net you +1 unit per 1000 plays. Very close, and quite forgivable if ignored.

    N&B
  • I have a link here for Eric Farmers Blackjack v5.0 that will help with the practice. It has two parts, the game and the strategy. You can input several rules into the Strategy and get a text file of the game. This is very useful. PLEASE NOTE: when asked to save the file remember to add the .txt extension!
    The Game also lets you see the house/player % plays. (for example it shows that for most variations that 10-2 vs. a dealer 4 is HIT.) Seeing the % is also very useful.

    Back in strategy, you can also input a dealer up card, and your hand to see what the best play is.

    You should also set up a CASINO file with your rules by altering and renaming one of the default casinos.

    ONE CAVEAT: this program is in DOS, and may not work well under WIN_Xp. But it works great with WIN_95/98.

    Here is the link... just click on the download v5.0 link.

    http://mywebpages.comcast.net/erfarmer201/blackjack/

    Cheers, and good cards.

    N&B
  • I came home and looked up this thread because of something that happened to me last night. I was at 3rd base and hit a 12 vs. 3 (appropriate because of Basic Strategy AND the count), busted with a ten and of course the dealer makes a 20 with a hit. A "gentleman" at the table, who was betting black and losing, jumped up, yelled and started around the table at me!!! I was the only lady at the table and the REAL gentleman that was sitting next to me stood up and stopped him. The dealer had to call security!!!! The dealer said that this guy had to be escorted out another time, but that still didn't make me feel better at the time. I was having a really good night even though I wasn't getting a lot of good counts, so I hadn't been playing oddly or sporatically up to that point. I'll probably always scan the table before I hit that 12 again.
  • Hi D :wink:

    Where did this happen :?: be lucky and take care

    Cheers

    Colin
  • D said:
    I came home and looked up this thread because of something that happened to me last night. I was at 3rd base and hit a 12 vs. 3 (appropriate because of Basic Strategy AND the count), busted with a ten and of course the dealer makes a 20 with a hit. A "gentleman" at the table, who was betting black and losing, jumped up, yelled and started around the table at me!!! I was the only lady at the table and the REAL gentleman that was sitting next to me stood up and stopped him. The dealer had to call security!!!! The dealer said that this guy had to be escorted out another time, but that still didn't make me feel better at the time. I was having a really good night even though I wasn't getting a lot of good counts, so I hadn't been playing oddly or sporatically up to that point. I'll probably always scan the table before I hit that 12 again.

    D - What's really outrageous is that this guy would physically threaten a female. You're in Detroit, right? Was this on the US or Canadian side of the river? (And where was the jerk from?)
    I usually announce to the table that I'm about to hit my 12 vs the dealer's 3 "because it's the correct play", the dealer usually confirms what I've just said, then I look around the table as if to say "any of you got a problem with that?" If I win, or more importantly if the dealer busts, I'm applauded as a genius for having made this brilliant and daring play, and if I lose, oh well, they don't get upset. On one occasion when I sat down at third I actually announced my practice with 12-2 and 12-3 ahead of time because the rest of the table had a "more moronic than usual" look about them.
  • Yep, this was in big, bad Detroit. The funny thing was the BAD guy was a "suburbs" guy in a suit and the GOOD guy was probably from the city and wearing a black leather jacket. Just goes to show....
  • D

    When you make some of the Mag 7 plays it also causes comment. I usually say I know this is wrong,but I have a hunch. Had a few get a little sore. I just say blackjack is not a team sport. Never had any real trouble.

    Charles
  • tuffy88 said:
    D

    When you make some of the Mag 7 plays it also causes comment. I usually say I know this is wrong,but I have a hunch. Had a few get a little sore. I just say blackjack is not a team sport. Never had any real trouble.

    Charles


    The most common of the Mag 7 is not to hit 16 vs 10 when there are more 4's and 5's out on the table than 10's. I usually explain it the same way as Charles, but so many players think not hitting 16 (or 15, or 14) any time is the right move, it doesn't really matter.

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