Advanced Strategy?
  • I started a new topic 'cause I figured this question didn't really go with the comments on the Tournament show thread.

    Advanced Strategy was mentioned in that thread, concerning 12 V 4. What is this strategy? Or where can I read about it? I've always stood on 12 V 4. I thought that was the correct play. I'm not a counter, so if this play is appplied only when counting, then I don't need to worry about it.

    But, I am doing the right thing for BS progression playing, right?

    John
  • John: 12vs4 is one of those marginal plays that you can alter and play more correctly, even if your a basic strategy player:

    * 10,2 vs 4 is called the Dr. Pepper rule.......you hit, but stand on other 12vs4 combinations. Logic: none of the cards you need are showing.


    * Same # of small and large(min) cards showing = 0......you hit all 12vs4
    combinations,otherwise follow B/S and stand. Logic: board counting is
    more accurate than hand composition.

    The first is "Hand composition".......looking at your and the dealer hand
    The second is "Board counting"......looking at all cards on the board

    Ray
  • Hmm.. I dont quite understand the Dr Pepper rule, and I have employed this Advanced Basic Strategy for quite sometime myself... perhaps explain it a bit more?

    One thing that Ray didn't mention is that the 12 vs. 4 does NOT apply to when you have two 6's. In that situation, you SPLIT if the game allows DOUBLE AFTER SPLIT. NEVER I repeat, NEVER stand on 6/6 vs. 4 with DAS option unless you are at the casino to a) waste time & b) LOSE MONEY.
  • Bug: Dr Pepper is a hit situation in six or less decks because the cards
    that you can use; 5,6,7,8,9 are not showing. This amounts to 120 cards
    and is > 1/3 of the pack(six deck). This is a tiny difference and that
    is the reason it does not apply to eight deck games. The mass of cards
    in 8 deck, washes away this tiny difference.

    Ray
  • Okay... but what if cards 5-9 are present to make your 12? i.e. 5+7? Seems that's the only one. What's the "rule" to hit? But if you follow this rule for your OWN hand, you still have to look at the table to see the total amount of babies & 10's, then take the proper play based on the net total.
  • I should also add: What we are talking about is the effect of card removal
    or the lack there of: In Dr P we don't want a 2,4,10 and some have been removed. We do want 5,6,7,8,9 and none have been removed.
    The less decks we play the more important card removal becomes.

    What you say is true. Board counting overrides hand comp and this is
    like hand comp overrides B/S. How far you go with this matters in terms
    of accuracy.

    Ray
  • True, I'm just stating the simple fact that what is fully available (entire table vs. own hand) should be taken into consideration since it gives you the better play overall.

    What other ways are there to increase accuracy (besides obviously, card counting) when making close plays like this? What about the Ilustrious 18 (I18)? Or does this only have to do with Card Counting altogether? Plays like taking insurance when count is >=+3, standing on 16v10 when count = >=1.
  • Well, I would say that to fully implement I18 you need to count cards. At
    some point anything less is just not practical, but not impossible because
    you can get most of them with board counting. The accuracy of BC is
    limited to a snap shot(that hand) and what is equal to a +1 because of
    BC'ing may in reality be neutral, -1 or any other value because you
    have no history to add to your current view.
  • Bug, a few thoughts on Dr Pepper.

    Basic Strategy assumes heads up play you and the dealer. Perhaps this is a factor in determining the play as opposed to "real world" as additional players infer that a different approach is to be taken.

    Don't forget the following applies in the case of the BASIC strategy decision...

    1) If the dealer's down card is 5,6,7,8,or 9, dealer has a good hand if 5,6, or 7, and about the same chances as you to draw 1 w/o breaking with the 8 or 9. Figure with A,2,3, or 4 in the hole that the dealer will stand more than you. The worst cards in the hole are the 3 ranks of 10-value cards not seen. Even then, 3,4,5,6,7 drawn will give dealer a standing hand, and all of them are still in the deck except the one 4 on the table as the up card.

    2) For intents and purposes you draw once. Even if its an Ace. Only a 10-value breaks you. Thats nearly a 9 in 13 chance of survival. The dealer with a 4 up is likely to make 17+ more than break.

    Actually it boils down to nearly even odds to make or break, for both parties. The player has about even odds to draw 1 and stand or break whereas the dealer has about even odds to stand or break.
  • Hence the reason why 12v4 is THE ABSOLUTE CLOSEST MARGINAL PLAY in Blackjack!
  • 1) If the dealer's down card is 5,6,7,8,or 9, dealer has a good hand if 5,6, or 7, and about the same chances as you to draw 1 w/o breaking with the 8 or 9. Figure with A,2,3, or 4 in the hole that the dealer will stand more than you. The worst cards in the hole are the 3 ranks of 10-value cards not seen. Even then, 3,4,5,6,7 drawn will give dealer a standing hand, and all of them are still in the deck except the one 4 on the table as the up card.



    HUH?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?! :roll: :roll: :roll:

    Please, explain that entire thing to me. It's as if I'm reading CHINESE and I am a blind man.
  • Your cards 10-2
    Dealer has a 4 showing.

    The down card:
    5-6-7... dealer has a good hand and probably wins
    8 or 9... dealer has the same chance as you to stand/bust with one card,
    and worse chance of standing if 2 or more cards are drawn.
    10-value...dealer has about even chance to make 17+ or break with 1 card, but breaks more often if drawing 2 cards.
    A-2-3-4... dealer has a better chance than you to stand because dealer can draw twice.

    Remember your in a losing situation, but you lose a tiny bit less to draw. Part of this IMHO is that you "steal one from the dealer".

    The result is that its an even bet for you to draw 1 and stand vs. the dealer to stand.
  • Thanks, I got you... now what about when dealer shows a *5* or *6*? Is it too risky to hit when they show that? I see some DOUBLE.... is there a BS to double or hit on 5-6 on your 10/2 if the count is x?
  • basic strategy indicates stand. If your keeping score, generally HIT only at some index that indicates more babys than biggies remain. For simple +/- this is around -2 TC. Since most score keeping strategies tell you to play at -1 TC or higher, presumably you would rarely face this situation anyway. Traditional +/- would play at ZERO or higher, and you might never see the hand with a bet in front of you at the proper index to HIT.

    Almost a moot point.

    N&B

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