ATTN: Walter - Trip Report + Betting Questions
  • This is a long post so if you want to skip to the questions and dont feel the need to read about the details of my trip feel free to skip to the end.

    First time @ Grand Casino, tried out the double decks only to find out that the penetration hella sucks, AND the dealer's are rude. Penetration was a meager 50% and with WT progression implementation it didn't matter since only about 4 hands max would be dealt each hand.

    Soon I got tired of doubledeck so tried out heads-up shoe against the depressed looking dealer and completely thrashed him to the point of no return. Boy did that feel good. In just 10 minutes I had already PROFITED ~$1500 from him, and later left the table after hitting some bad losing streaks still with almost $2500.

    What pissed me off, however, about this dealer was that he gave me §h|+ after I put another bet out on 3/3 vs. busting card shown. That moron only gave me ONE CARDS and treated it like a bloody doubledown (ON A HARD BLOODY 6!!!!!!) than had the nerve to say "well I dont know what you wanna do" after he'd seen me play flawlessly for the previous 50 hands. Come to think of it he's probably too ignorant to know I was playing perfectly in the first place... :roll: :roll: Nevertheless, I let it go and rolled him some more, but had I not been completely OBLITERATING' him and if it were just see-sawing back and forth I would have left IMMEDIATELY.
    I dont deal with rude dealers.

    My Betting Questions:

    I was up ~$2500, more than double my bankroll of $2000 and was informed by Thomason to raise it until 50% of that profit was gone. I did just that, incresing my base bet from $50-$100 and implementing a 100-150-200-250 progression. That would mean ~$1250 is all I'd have to lose before I drop back down to 50-75-100-125, however, doing this ignores the leaving with 2/3 profit rule that is mentioned in many blackjack books.

    So with this said, what is someone supposed to do?

    As I said, I raised to $100 but quickly lost that $1200 and only ended up profitting ~$800 overall, which is only a 1/3 profit of my peak profit of ~$2500.

    I'm quite confused and would like strong advise, thanks.
  • QUIT WHEN YOU DOUBLE UP. Or are you just too dam greedy?

    How much have you won this year?

    When is it enough?

    CAN YOU STOP?... for a year?

    Get a grip and an anchor to reality.

    N&B strong enuff?
  • Bug: You made a gamblers decision toward turning a good session into
    a great session. It don't work everytime, but that don't mean it's wrong.
    You'll get em next time. You may want to drop that 2/3 profit business..
  • Moderator's Statement: Bughouse's response to N&B has been deleted because it was absolutely nothing but a name calling personal attack.

    Bughouse specifically asked for a strong response, but when he read the N&B post above, he responded with his usual tantrum; ranting and raving and calling N&B a pansy and telling him to shut up, among other things.

    Profanity and blatent personal attacks will not be tolerated on this Forum.

    Bughouse, read this carefully.......Clean up your act or stay off this Forum.

    Grifter
  • Now, to respond to N&B. No matter what I say, though, Grifter will probably just delete it because apparently he doesn't like seeing people like myself totally put people like N&B in their place (after starting things).

    Nickels_n_bullets said:
    QUIT WHEN YOU DOUBLE UP. Or are you just too dam greedy?


    Nice spelling, "dam". If you dont have anything WORTHWHILE to say and ask stupid things like "are you too greedy" which has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything then just rest your mouth, ok? That's just like me asking you "are you just too STUPID" after making such an incoherent statement like that.

    Nickels_n_bullets said:
    How much have you won this year?


    Again, WHY DO YOU CARE and what bl00dY difference does it make huh??? :roll: :roll: :roll: Do you think you're gonna get any of it? QUIT BEING SO NOSY!

    nickels_n_bullets said:
    When is it enough?


    When I feel it is, why?

    nickels_n_bullets said:
    CAN YOU STOP?... for a year?


    CAN YOU QUIT ACTING ENVIOUS?... for a second?! :twisted: :evil: :twisted:
  • First, I'd say you've done rather well this year. I'm sure the house knows it too. Check your records or journals if you keep them. My point is not totally useless, as you can hammer a casino or a group of them so much, and then you can't play there anymore. I see Milk Ram has been bounced from 2 locations. Sometime along the way the casino thought he'd won enough and decided to throw him/her outta the club. When do you think that will happen to you? I see a 10000 number in one of your last few visits. IMO, thats number that gets remembered.

    I differ in your response to "When is it enough?" It may very well be "When the HOUSE says so."

    As long as I'm acting envious, thats OK. I'm not really envious of your abilities displayed in 21 yet. Playing 21 for 24 years has taught me not to compete with other players, but with and against the house. We all have success and failure. Its your money throw it around as you will.

    All of those questions were aimed not at you, but should be thought of by you at some point. My response was and remains a point of questioning ONE's SELF. I'm fully aware you don't need my help playing 21. It DOES look like you need to assess for yourself where you stand in the world of blackjack. Do you stand on the shoulders of giants, or do we all stand on your shoulders?

    N&B
  • Yes, I have done pretty well this year. Definitely much better than last year for sure.

    All of those questions were aimed not at you, but should be thought of by you at some point. My response was and remains a point of questioning ONE's SELF.


    Then please, next time be more tactful in your posts because it seemed pretty personal that you were just hammering me cuz you thought I was greedy/being up so much over casino and what not... over the net it's hard sometimes to distinguish what one's trying to say so just please make those types of posts that are directed to me worded in a way in which I wouldn't think you're just all over me. Thanks.

    BTW, MilkRam got booted because they saw hard proof of him cardcounting, because he used the club card which tracked his play.
  • Thats OK.. But those questions asked are the toughest sometimes. I've asked them to my self many times. They are challenging in more ways than one.

    Keep the faith.

    N&B
  • ok... so you would just stop after doubling your total bankroll? cuz the thing is, stopping while you're ahead is tantmount to just continuing to play the next time you visit the casino. it's just one continuous long shoe... although i understand why you'd stop cuz it's so nice leaving the casino not only a winner, but DOUBLING your bankroll as well! and at the $50 level with $2000 bankroll it's quite nice eh?

    has stopping after doubling your bankroll always been your plan of attack? if so, have you been successful that way? lemme know of your blackjack knowledge... do you bs/interact/mag7/count??? what's up.
  • The way I play, that is my goal if I can reach it. If I were to bring in 2 g's, and walked out with 4 g's thats a lot of their $ for one session. I think the key is "one session". IMO one's life expeience at 21 may be considered one big shoe, but its "the hands" that need to be managed for the shoe to be a winner. I'm glad you brought up "the big picture" of things, as its played the same as the small one. Each session should have a goal, and that goal should be managed.

    Put a number to it. If one gets on a hot streak, protect it, meaning if the goal is to double, and you get hot and triple, manage a bad streak so you still walk away with double. If I triple, I'm out quick. It boils down to it being easier to double than triple. For a bankroll of 2 g's, doubling more frequently than tripling is worh the financial gains in the long run. Meaning that one can make 2 g's alot and keep it. Thats quite a pile of CASH.

    I've always played the A5 system. All I want to know is who has the edge. When its mine I bet bigger. I spent a few bucks on 678 to find out if it is/was worth it. Theres really about 10 plays affected, so its easy.
    Essentially:

    1) doubling against a dealer 2, A2 vs. 5, and A8 vs. 6
    2) surrender tweaks (2)
    3) hit/stand 16 vs. dealer 10 with 3+ cards, and A7 vs. dealer Ace

    When I play, I bring $600 and I only bet $25-100. If I make $300, thats time to go. If I'm hot, I stick around a bit. I get a feel (right or wrong as it may sound to others) when its time to leave, as if I sense the cards turning (bad). So I do. It doesn't bother me about the "cudda won more". I got more than I came in carrying. Sometimes I'm down "only" $100, sometimes I'm up $500.

    I try not to attack, unless things look good and are already good (Re: $$$). Sometimes its a grind, and sometimes a punch in the nose. Even using all 10 changes stealth is a good asset. You might say I'm trimming the edges to basic.

    My knowledge is primarily concept. Rules have a habit of working. The concept of money management is as important as the concept of knowing who has the edge. Ignore one, you lose the other. My system, progressions, and basic all rely upon excellent managing, because the chances of success are not determined by advantage as it is money management. Simple plus-minus and other strategies, along with the concept of playing when conditions are ripe, are better suited for professional play (Professional= you make $100 every day/36500+ every year... my definition ) due to having the advantage when you play, and not playing when you don't. As you surmise, its a totally different style of play. The phrases table hopping and ploppy come to mind... lets call it short and long table sessions.

    Because I play basic or something very close to it, I don't misplay a hand on purpose, although some of the 10 plays look wrong for the average gambler. Well, I don't hit 10-2 vs. dealer 4, unless the score is below the starting point by a point or two. (too much reaction at the table brings unwanted attention)

    Sometimes I play the 1233 progression, I finally posted it on-site. No I don't count in terms of hi/lo or others. Basically for many years, what I developed works fine for me. I have an edge, and bet more. For 2 decks i can play 1&2 chips and still have an edge. But I must admit H17 without surrender is not good for A5... or basic. I think you HAVE to count. And that itself should warn counters not to play that version of 21.

    Finally, one of my long held beliefs is winners don't quit, they go on vacation.

    N&B
  • Bug: The answer to your question is simple: Do what YOU want to do. If you're comfortable with a 50% gain in bankroll, end the session and start again at another time or place. If you want to go for the big score, plunge ahead and damn the torpedos! Evey player has their own comfort level, and no writer can make a general recommendation that applies to every player.
    I tend to go for the big score... I think that big wins from time to time are the only effective way of combating the house advantage. Looking back at the last two years, I had several big wins and one HUGE win that offset many small losses and kept me in the plus column. Had I set a win limit, I'd be a loser at this point.
  • BuGhOu§eMASTER said:
    Grifter, I see you're "back" and defending other people as usual and not letting me respond to imbacils like N&B.


    LOL.
  • Walter: Very,very good comments. Well said and right on the money.
  • N&B, I think I know what I need to do now. I need to stop when I have doubled because you are right, it is that ONE SESSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not just going to keep playing when later on that same night I'll most likely be out at da tables again you know what I'm saying? And what if I double AGAIN?! Than that's $4000 y0!

    Mr. Thomason: I understand it's what I want to do, but the problem with that is that I'm not sure what I want to do. Because of my discovery of Basic Strategy/Mag7/Hand Interaction available for the player and all ways to reduce the HA as much as possible, I'm wanting to do all the "right" things in my gambling in general, that's why I'm hesistant on what to do after doubling my bankroll for a particular instance. You know what I'm saying? Are you familiar with the 2/3 rule that I mentioned? Because again, had I followed the 2/3 rule it would've not followed what you, a prominent and well-known author of Blackjack recommend me and I was just wondering how we could follow both. :cry:

    Ray: So you discourage leaving with 2/3 and dont condone that suggestion by several BJ authors? Or does this only relate to if one is counting?? In my situation what would you have done? Pressed it then drop back to what you were betting before you lost 50% of the profit or what?

    As I said before, I dont exactly KNOW what I wanna do when I have profited $2500, I just want to do what is BEST, and at this point I definitely think you should raise the bet but the problem with that is that you're more likely going to end up LOSING that profit because a) you're upping your bet with only little to lose and b) due to standard deviation 12.5 units at the $100 level can be gone in a HURRY!!

    ...You know what I'm saying?
  • N&B, I think I know what I need to do now. I need to stop when I have doubled because you are right, it is that ONE SESSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not just going to keep playing when later on that same night I'll most likely be out at da tables again you know what I'm saying? And what if I double AGAIN?! Than that's $4000 y0!

    Mr. Thomason: I understand it's what I want to do, but the problem with that is that I'm not sure what I want to do. Because of my discovery of Basic Strategy/Mag7/Hand Interaction available for the player and all ways to reduce the HA as much as possible, I'm wanting to do all the "right" things in my gambling in general, that's why I'm hesistant on what to do after doubling my bankroll for a particular instance. You know what I'm saying? Are you familiar with the 2/3 rule that I mentioned? Because again, had I followed the 2/3 rule it would've not followed what you, a prominent and well-known author of Blackjack recommend me and I was just wondering how we could follow both. :cry:

    Ray: So you discourage leaving with 2/3 and dont condone that suggestion by several BJ authors? Or does this only relate to if one is counting?? In my situation what would you have done? Pressed it then drop back to what you were betting before you lost 50% of the profit or what?

    As I said before, I dont exactly KNOW what I wanna do when I have profited $2500, I just want to do what is BEST, and at this point I definitely think you should raise the bet but the problem with that is that you're more likely going to end up LOSING that profit because a) you're upping your bet with only little to lose and b) due to standard deviation 12.5 units at the $100 level can be gone in a HURRY!!

    ...You know what I'm saying?

    Cuz the way I'm looking at it, it's almost as if you're better of NOT increasing from $50-$100 base since you're more than likely going to end up LOSING those profits in a hurry since it isn't even 20x of $100 so therefore one should retain at the same level... that is what I am confused about.
  • Hi Bug-
    There are 3 reasons why we play blackjack at the casino;
    1) To Win Money
    2) To Win Money
    3) To Win Money

    Now,that said always remember the 3 reasons we play blackjack at the casino and seriously remember what Walter said about doing what YOU are comfortable with.

    Best of luck-
    PROG
  • BuGhOu§eMASTER said:
    ....discourage leaving with 2/3 and dont condone that suggestion by several BJ authors?


    BuGhOu§eMASTER said:
    .....doing this ignores the leaving with 2/3 profit rule that is mentioned in many blackjack books.


    Bughouse - Please list the names of four or five of the several BJ authors and their books so the rest of us can look into this 2/3 "rule" you are talking about.

    Thanks....Grifter
  • I, too agree with Walt and others.. to play the game within your comfort zone. At length, I pretty much described mine, and others have described theirs. There is no doubt that HUGE or very big wins sustain the lean periods. Manage the losses, and the wins remain.

    Yes, even eith the conservative rules I printed, I have had very nice sessions of +2500, and +3000 and numerous +1000's. What I have noticed is how steady the wins have been, even though the majority of them are in the +200 to +400 range. Losses have never been more than -600 and are usually in the range of -100 to -200.

    Really, if you look at Walts system, when you have 2000 and are +2500 you have 45 $100 wagers or 22 $200 wagers. Just as you walked in, you risk the bankroll. If you'd rather keep the bank roll, then play more at 50 base until you're up 40 $100 units, then double... whatever you feel comfortable doing. My recommendation is to make a mental stop-loss point at the +2500, continue playing at $50, and if you don't get to +4000, then quit if you fall back to +2500. You protect your bankroll and your double-up point at $2500 IF you get past it by say $500. I'm all for protecting one's ASSets as it were.... with a win.

    JMHO

    N&B
  • Bug: I understand the way you feel and a little more time and your
    own personal experience will take care of that. For me it's like this:

    * I quit when I'm too tired to feel at my best.

    * If you have played quite a bit on a trip, a state of "APATHY" can set
    in and your not at your best; you don't care as much as you should.
    I quit then and do something else for a while.

    * I quit if I have a time constraint or scheduled event

    * I quit if my pockets are empty

    * I never quit when I'm winning because winning is the best of times for
    everyone. Confidence, drive, patience and your "greed index" are all
    higher when you are winning. Take advantage of that......................
  • Hi Walter-
    In one of your books you mentioned how you have played 18 hour sessions of blackjack. In a recent post you mentioned how you have rarely on occasion increased your session bankroll 10-20 times its' initial size.

    I for one would really enjoy hearing about some of your longest sessions,most profitable, and maybe even most disappointing sessions ever for you.

    I think most of us could use knowledge of your experiences to bolster our morale the next time we're in the trenches!

    thanks-
    Prog
  • PROGRESSIONIST said:
    Hi Walter-
    In one of your books you mentioned how you have played 18 hour sessions of blackjack. In a recent post you mentioned how you have rarely on occasion increased your session bankroll 10-20 times its' initial size.

    I for one would really enjoy hearing about some of your longest sessions,most profitable, and maybe even most disappointing sessions ever for you.

    I think most of us could use knowledge of your experiences to bolster our morale the next time we're in the trenches!

    thanks-
    Prog


    I'll second that, if you'll indulge us. I just bought 21st Century BJ off Amazon but haven't had a chance to take a look at it yet.
  • OK, guys... here's a few stories "from the trenches", but since I use my real name on this site and might attract attention from "you know who", I'll relate some of the experiences of a VERY good friend of mine.
    He plays a lot of blackjack on gambling ships that have 4 hour gaming sessions. His best winning streak was 19 consecutive sessions. His worst losing streak was 9 losing sessions. The two largest wins were $7,000 and $9,000 -- two consecutive sessions. Largest loss was $6,000. Average bet is about $50 per hand, playing two hands almost all the time. He always uses my four step betting progression, wherever he plays.
    His biggest win was at a major strip casino in Vegas. After being $4,000 ahead near the end of a three day visit, he had three hours to play before flight-time. Played heads-up in thje VIP Pit, and simply COULDN'T LOSE.
    Won $17,000 in three hours, eventually betting $100 mins. on three spots.
    The casino shift manager and three other suits stood behind him for the last half hour of play, offered a suite if he wanted to stay over, and then provided a limo to the airport when he had to leave. GREAT EXPERIENCE!
    He keeps a gambling "stash" from winnings. Highest amount was $51,000, starting from $1,000 three years before... lowest point has been $6,000 (after spending a lot on vacations, toys, a car, landscaping, house painting, etc.)
    His longest session was 20 straight hours at a casino in Reno... was down $1,500 in the first hour, and fought all night to win it back. Finally hit a winning streak and came out $110 ahead for the session.
    Worst single loss for one hand was $1,000 on the last hand of the night... he was slightly inebriated, but ahead, so he bet half his winnings on the last hand. He drew a 19 to the dealer's 6, and the only other player at the table stood on a HARD 4 -- he said he didn't want to take the dealer's bust card, trying to help him. Needless to say, dealer drew three cards to 21, and scooped up his 10 black chips... HEARTBREAK!!.
    His game has been in a slump (with losses of $16,000 over the last 6 months) but his last two sessions on the ship have netted profits of $700 and $1100... hopefully his losing streak has run its course.
    He keeps one silver dollar chip from each casino he visits, and currently has 136 chips. He likes casinos.
    If y'all have specific questions, ask me and I'll ask him.
    Cheers!
  • Walter-
    Thank you.

    Prog
  • Walt - Great post! Ya' know, between us some people might say we have been in way too many casinos in our lifes. :) .....Grif'
  • Say thanks to your friend for me, Walt. :wink:

    Great post.
  • Walter- Ditto on the great post. I also liked your article in this months Midwest Players Magizine.
  • Thanks, guys... I reread the post and thought it might be too much about money, but isn't that why we play this game? For fun I play golf (83 handicap), fish (haven't caught anything in the last five years, 'cause the big ones always get away), and play fun poker on the web. Blackjack is dull, after all these years, but the people are interesting and the money is motivational. My friend is playing tonight on one of the local gamblin' ships. I'll report his outcome tomorrow... if he wins!
  • I asked my friend about his blackjack session last night. He muttered several expletives and told me to mind my own business. I guess that means he didn't win. :(
  • Midnite: Glad you enjoyed my article in Midwest Gaming and Travel. I'm a volunteer associate editor for this publication, so I can make them publish my offbeat stuff from time to time... I consider this magazine to be the best monthly publication of its type, and encourage everyone to subscribe if they have a general interest in all casino games and how to best play them.
  • BuGhOu§eMASTER wrote:
    ....discourage leaving with 2/3 and dont condone that suggestion by several BJ authors?


    BuGhOu§eMASTER wrote:
    .....doing this ignores the leaving with 2/3 profit rule that is mentioned in many blackjack books.


    Bughouse - Please list the names of four or five of the several BJ authors and their books so the rest of us can look into this 2/3 "rule" you are talking about.

    Thanks....Grifter
  • Why should I prove something you choose not to believe?

    Furthermore, if "the rest of us" were interested about it, "the rest of us" would've asked me about it by now, instead of just you. :roll: :roll:

    So DROP IT.
  • BuGhOu§eMASTER said:
    Why should I prove something you choose not to believe?



    To demonstrate your point, perhaps?

    John
  • Bughousemaster - I am not asking you to prove anything. I simply asked you to take a minute and list five of the authors or books you were referring to.

    And yes, I think there are other members besides me who would be interested in further reading about such an important topic as money management.

    Please post the names; and thanks in advance.

    Grifter
  • I"m always trying to learn a little more and improve ( to offset the stuff I keep forgetting).. so I'd be interested in the specific references too. Thanks Bug.

    Larz
  • Bug - the authors you cited have a slightly more aggressive quit point than I am using right now. If you could, please tell us the authors and the titles of these books so we all can have the opportunity to read their reasons for ourselves.

    Thanks.
  • Why should I prove something you choose not to believe?

    Furthermore, if "the rest of us" were interested about it, "the rest of us" would've asked me about it by now, instead of just you. :roll: :roll:

    So DROP IT.
  • BuGhOu§eMASTER wrote:
    ....discourage leaving with 2/3 and dont condone that suggestion by several BJ authors?


    BuGhOu§eMASTER wrote:
    .....doing this ignores the leaving with 2/3 profit rule that is mentioned in many blackjack books.

    Bughousemaster - the authors/books you refer to have a slightly more aggressive quit point than I am using right now. If possible, could you please tell us the authors and/or the titles of these books so we all can have the opportunity to read their reasons for ourselves.

    Thanks.
  • Bughousemaster - Why don't you stop your charade. This phony wounded dignity act and your failure to make a simple post are leading all of us to only one conclusion....You are lying again!

    I am starting to think the five (or more) books stating the 2/3 rule do not exist...you made them up, and are a figment of your imagination. It seems strange to me that I have 40-50 blackjack books here beside me in a bookshelf and not one of them recommends your stated "rule".

    If I am correct in the above, what really disgusts me is that you deliberately mislead 261 members of this Forum about such an important subject as money management.....all in an pathetic attempt to make yourself appear experienced and learned about blackjack.

    If I am incorrect about any of the above, I will humbly apologize; and all you have to do to prove me incorrect is list five of the books you were referring to.

    Regards.....Grifter
  • Ask MilkRam for more information.

    And Grifter, dont for one second make it seem that I'm misleading everyone here. As I stated previously, if anyone else was interested they could have long asked me by now, couldn't they? :roll: :roll: :twisted: :evil: :evil: :roll:

    And you speaking for everyone on this forum is only making YOU look like a pathetic old man... (feel free to delete this post since you constantly OVERABUSE your meager moderator duties here anyway)
  • Don't EVEN start your usual backpedaling, sidestepping, belittling name calling nonsense with me.....I could care less.

    Ask MilkRam for more information. Why? He didn't make the posts, you did. For once just be a man and take responsibility for your actions.

    And Grifter, dont for one second make it seem that I'm misleading everyone here. As I stated previously, if anyone else was interested they could have long asked me by now, couldn't they? It does matter who asked you what! The fact remains that you mislead everyone by posting what apparantly were lies. What part of that don't you understand?

    As I said before, stop your charade.....either post the names of the authors and/or books, or cease and desist with the drivel.

    Regards, and ya'll have a nice afternoon.....Grifter
  • I would love to hear the references, too, Bug. Money management is an important topic to me as well.
  • Sounds like a good idea to me. Let's see teh names of the 5 books.

    Of course there is always the possibility that Bug has never read any books, just looked at the pictures.
  • Still waiting, chess boy.

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