Hi/Lo or KO ?
  • Hello All!

    I have been lurking for a while, taking in everything. Thanks to everyone for an amazing place to learn.

    Here is my question: I am starting to count cards. I know BS, so I am past that, but I have hard a hard time deciding to go with Hi/Lo or KO. I live in the DC area, so I would most probably be playing in Atlantic City, which I understand has a lot of 6D games.

    I am good with numbers, so I figured I would go with Hi/Lo or KO for now, and then a while down the road move up a notch if I felt like it.

    From what I can tell the main differance between Hi/Lo and KO, is (un)balance. Is it worth giving up the balance to not have to estimate the true count?

    They seem to both be on the same level to learn, and I am not planning on betting with very large sums of money. I don't like buying books, so access to information on the web plays into some of my decision which one to go with.

    So, chime in with your thoughts, and help me decide which way to progress. Thanks :D
  • Rivier - Your poll question was which system is "more powerful".....That answer is they are virtually equal.........Yes, the primary difference is that KO is unbalanced.........I've been told that most new counters are going with KO because of not having to make the TC conversion........Grifter
  • Is KO as good with two-deck games as well as 6-deck? I have read that hi/lo is good because it is stands up in any playing situation.
  • The comparison ratings remain virtually equal for any amount of decks.
  • Rivler- Gamemaster school would be my suggestion if you want to
    learn H/L plus much more. It's around 19-20 lessons that are free
    and you can download any of them....I think, if not you can always
    print them. You can use H/L without true conversion by playing B/S
    and betting with the running count and installing mag-7 at some min
    count. In otherwords learn in stages. H/L is like the more advanced
    level 2 and 3 systems and transition to one of these is made easier.

    Just enter the above key words and look for school.....If you can't find
    it let me know and I'll look with you. I can never remember where I've
    been or how I got there........................................

  • I have to disagree with you, Ray, although there sure is nothing wrong with Gamemaster.........If I were starting today, I would go with KO for the simplicity. You have a full Level 1 method that you can play to almost any degree of complexity you choose; including full indices.

    As far as converting to a Level 2 count later, I would make a wild guess and say that maybe one person in a thousand who learns to count ever advances to Level 2.......thus the conversion is a non-issue.
  • __________
  • Grifter- Like you I don't think there is much difference in level one
    systems performance. As I understand it, he wants something on the
    net and don't want to buy some books. That is why I say:"if you want
    to learn H/L",etc,etc and it's free. And no I don't think going to a higher
    level is something that most would do, but he said he might.

    I don't know of any site where he can evaluate diff. sys's, so he needs
    to start somewhere.
  • That's a Charlie......sorry......I missed that free part. No, I don't know of any sites either.....I just grab a book.
  • Buy the book. I bought the KO book for $9. If that price makes you queasy, you shouldn't be gambling. $9 is a fraction of your payroll. The book will easily save you that much money.

    Go with KO. I originally learned Hi-Lo because I hadn't heard of KO at the time. It was very easy to convert to KO. They're very close to the same counting system -- the difference is in the backend.

    I was originally going to go with Hi-Lo still, until I went to my local bookstore and browsed the KO book. It makes a good point: Trueing, while not incredibly hard, has to be done often and fast. You true before you bet, and you potentially have to true for every card your dealt. If you hit three times, you might have to true after each hit before deciding what to do. That's a lot of math that has to be done quick. So I bought the KO book.

    Learning how to count KO and Hi-Lo have the exact same degree of difficulty. They both have about the same number of advanced plays to learn based on the count. The only big difference besides no trueing is that KO requires you to start your count at a different number based upon the number of decks used (simple formula).

    Check out http://www.koblackjack.com/K-O_Rookie_System.html For the rookie system in KO. It doesn't describe the advanced moves, but gives you a good idea of what you're getting into, and how to count with KO.

    There's also a comparison of the different systems at http://www.koblackjack.com/compare.html

    In the end, I just think KO is simpler, and works just as well, if not better than Hi-Lo.

    I'd explain some of the more advanced moves with KO, but you should really buy the book for an in-depth treatment of which moves are important, and why.
  • ----------
  • Does anyone know where I can find the I-18 for KO? I have only seen it for 4D hi/lo on bjmath.com.

    Thanks for all your input!
  • Wasn't talking about you Leon, just TheRivler. The difference in counting between KO and Hi_lo is that in KO the 7 counts as a +1 instead of 0.

    I was just saying that Rivler should buy the book if he wants the true dirt on what alterations to basic strategy you need, and the advantages you gain.

    I think that most alterations in basic strategy are the same across most of the level 1 counting systems, although I can't say for sure since I haven't studied very many. But it would make sense that you would alter the same plays that are nearly statistical deadheats based upon the count, regardless of the system. The big difference is at what count you alter your play at, since for each system that will be different.

    If you're pretty clever, you can find about 16 of the 18 recommended plays online, but I think you should just buy the book. It's a pain to find them all, and not worth the time. I'm not going to tell you where, so don't ask.

    [edited to reflect 7's as +1 in KO. Thanks Vile.]
  • kaiser said:
    Wasn't talking about you Leon, just TheRivler. The difference in counting between KO and Hi_lo is that in KO the 7 counts as a -1 instead of 0.

    I think you ment to say that the 7 counts as a +1. ;)

    Thus, we have...

    - KO -
    1-7 (+1) 8,9 (0), 10-A (-1)

    - H/L -
    1-6 (+1) 7,8,9 (0), 10-A (-1)

    Just to clear up any confusion. :D

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