Advanced BS Hands - %'s??
  • Renzey, you out of all the posters here would probably know MOST about this, since you are filled with all these statistics about BJ that I just love reading and learning more about.

    In one of your articles, you mentioned that these Mag 7 hands are the ONLY hands that can be altered by the cards already played at the table. I was wondering 2 things, though. a) When you say "having more higher or lower cards on the table" to judge whether or not to make the advanced play, exactly how much more at least should we assess? Does it have to be at least a 2:1 relationship or just as long as there is MORE of the particular card (i.e. 6-5) we're better off doing the Advanced play? b) Out of the Mag 7 hands, which one is the CLOSEST CALL to performing the Advanced play, and can you rank these 7 from closest call to least likely to change your play, given that you already have been dealt a Mag 7 hand? I'd love to see all the statistical analysis you can present regarding this, because although all these 7 hands are close calls, I wanna know which one is the CLOSEST call of all, such as the 11vsAce one... Also... what is the minimum amount of players that must be at the table for you to do Advanced BS (without counting) because surely with just 1 player or you playing heads up is not enough info presented on the table to warrant a change in strategy, right?

    For those of you who dont know what "Advanced" Basic Strategy is, it's a way for regular Basic Strategy (BS) players to lower the House Advantage (HA) even more, because these 7 hands' (known as the Mag7 Hands) correct play can be altered because they're such borderline decisions, and by viewing what is already played on the table (that's a great advantage of 3rd base) can alter your TRUE correct play.

    Here are the Advanced Basic Strategy hands for you:

    Your hand Basic Strategy Advanced BS

    9 vs 2 Hit DOUBLE
    11 vs Ace Hit DOUBLE
    16 vs 10 Hit STAND
    12 vs 4 Stand HIT
    13 vs 2 Stand HIT
    A/7 vs 2 Stand DOUBLE
    A/8 vs 6 Stand DOUBLE

    Once again, Renzey, I'd love to see all sorts of statistical analysis you can display on this matter, including the % of times you'll be dealt each one, general winning % when Advanced Play is activated, etc. Thanks!!
  • BUG: All that Mag 7 info is a tall order for a message board post. You can get most of it in my book. But I'll give you the core stuff here. The mag 7 hands listed in order regarding closest decision first are:
    12 vs. 4
    16 vs. 10
    A/8 vs. 6
    A/7 vs. 2
    9 vs. 2
    13 vs. 2
    11 vs. A

    There order of frequency is:
    16 vs. 10 -- once every 28 hands
    12 vs. 4 -- once every 135 hands
    13 vs. 2 -- once every 135 hands
    11 vs. A -- once every 355 hands
    9 vs. 2 -- once every 355 hands
    A/7 vs. 2 -- once every 1100 hands
    A/8 vs. 6 -- once every 1100 hands

    The discrepency you need to go against basic strategy is:
    12 vs. 4 -- as many or more 10's as/than babies
    more babies than 10's
    A/8 vs. 6 -- 5 more babies than 10's
    A/7 vs. 2 -- 5 more babies than 10's
    9 vs. 2 -- 5 more babies than 10's
    13 vs. 2 -- 5 more 10's than babies
    11 va. A -- 6 more babies than 10's
  • Fred, you just wrote
    " Their order of frequency is:
    16 vs. 10 -- once every 28 hands..."

    Why does it feel like I get 16 vs 10 once out of every three hands?
  • Desert Dog said:
    Fred, you just wrote
    " Their order of frequency is:
    16 vs. 10 -- once every 28 hands..."

    Why does it feel like I get 16 vs 10 once out of every three hands?


    When you're cold, it certainly feels like that, doesn't it?
  • You're certainly generous with your work Fred, lucky for you it doesn't all come through on the message board and he'll have to get your book to get the ultra-secret ancillary techniques of using the Mag 7 hands. :wink:
  • Doc, you're welcome to ask whatever you want on this forum, and likewise with me... I dont need to know the "ultra-secret ancillary techniques"...

    Renzey, I didn't know it takes at least 5 or 6 cards MORE in order to execute 6/7 of those double downs, particularly the 11vsAce because I thought it was such a marginal call and certainly would not need 6 more lowbies... interesting.

    So in other words, to properly execute most of these DD hands you'd need at least 3 players, right??

    Renzey, what's the winning % of these Advanced BS hands when properly executed, as opposed to the regular BS when you CANT make Advanced play on these Mag 7 hands?
  • Bug - Renzey and I both answered that about two weeks ago. The gain for the advanced play hands is +0.03%.

    Grifter
  • Then why in one of his articles did it say that if you take advantage of advanced BS it'd cut down half of the HA? .03 seems to little.

    And I was wondering, given the odds of the original 7 hands without having ability to execute Advanced BS, what are the odds of winning - both ways (Advanced and reg. BS)?

    Also, do you know the MINIMUM amount of players needed to execute these hands, given that 6/7 require 5-6 more favorable cards?
  • Then why in one of his articles did it say that if you take advantage of advanced BS it'd cut down half of the HA? .03 seems to little.
    ....It is NOT advanced BS because there is "no such animal". It is advanced play. If Renzey said it cuts the HA in half, and I doubt that he did (you need to check that) than he will have to respond. The change is +0.03% as I just posted.

    Also, do you know the MINIMUM amount of players needed to execute these hands, given that 6/7 require 5-6 more favorable cards?
    ...Three, but you should have more.
  • Just a few more notes: Eliminate half the house edge with Mag 7?? I honestly don't know where that came from. In a six deck game it's worth about 0.03% as Grifter said; with about half of that being owed to 16 vs. 10 alone.
    How many players are needed? It depends upon how many cards their hands contain. If you're playing heads up and have 9/5/2 against a 10, you should stand (if you don't count). Also, playing only two handed if the dealer shows an Ace and player #1 has 5/3/2/5/4 while you have 6/5, double it.
    Your chances of winning by standing with 9/5/2 against a 10 rather than hitting improve by a few tenths of one percent.
    Now Bug, go out and buy my book -- it seems to address every next question you come up with. Even at $10 to $20 per hand it'll earn or save you 25 to 100 times it's cost after a year or so.
  • Bug - Blackjack Bulebook II
    (1) Buy the book
    (2) Read the book

    It will be money well spent.
  • I agree with midnite. I've purchased I and II (for the extra info in II) and they are both excellent. It's worth the $15-20 investment.
  • Renzey said:
    Just a few more notes: Eliminate half the house edge with Mag 7?? I honestly don't know where that came from. In a six deck game it's worth about 0.03% as Grifter said; with about half of that being owed to 16 vs. 10 alone.
    How many players are needed? It depends upon how many cards their hands contain. If you're playing heads up and have 9/5/2 against a 10, you should stand (if you don't count). Also, playing only two handed if the dealer shows an Ace and player #1 has 5/3/2/5/4 while you have 6/5, double it.
    Your chances of winning by standing with 9/5/2 against a 10 rather than hitting improve by a few tenths of one percent.
    Now Bug, go out and buy my book -- it seems to address every next question you come up with. Even at $10 to $20 per hand it'll earn or save you 25 to 100 times it's cost after a year or so.


    Renzey, you did say that it reduces the edge by 1/2... BUT you also said to take part in both Offensive and Defensive Hand Interaction... makes sense now?

    Where can I get the book from? If you people want me to get the book so bad, than you better LINK the CHINK you mofo'd FINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Bug,

    Your comments make you appear as an untrained puppy who's just learned how to bark and is too busy nipping at people's heels and peeing on their pantlegs to realize that they're actually trying to help you.

    This is a classy group of people and an outstanding forum. Restraint and civility will help keep it that way.

    Apologies for the analogy used above, but while I seldom contribute I'm an avid follower and appreciate the info and the humor but not the childish outbursts.
  • Rather than demanding people who give you advice to find the book for you and calling them "mofo'd FINKS", why don't you........

    Click on "Blackjack Books" at the top of this page? That would seem like a logical place to find a blackjack book.

    Grifter
  • Bug, I'm running out of patience and humor for your behavior, and I've probably been the most indulgent of any of the adults here. Do a little reading and show some resourcefulness, instead of asking for authors to reprint their inexpensive books here. Fred Renzey's book is very reasonably priced. And stop the rude abusive language. Remember, your ISP address can be blocked from this site. Grow up or get out.
  • Desert Dog, as porky pig would say... "PP PPPPP PPPPPPP PPPPPPPPPPPPPPISSSSSSSSSSSSS OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    If what I'm saying pisses you off that much, than dont respond to me. I have a right to post whatever the hell I want, whether it be questions, comments, etc. and if you dont like it go suck a big one. Same goes for the rest of you.
    Otherwise, STFU!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
  • The prosecution rests its case.

    Bug, some day you will be charged with a criminal offense. With your attitude this is a certainty. Your attorney will wisely choose the strategy of not having you take the witness stand to testify on your own behalf. Do yourself a favor and listen to your attorney.
  • :lol: Right, and some day your teenage sons will be a better BJ player than you too, right?! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

    Your antics dont scare me.
  • Cmon bug....get a clue...your posts are increasingly childish, rude and obnoxious. I try to overlook the fact you're from Houston (although it's been suggested the power outage was due to a 'dim bulb' in the white house), but enough is enough. And how many phony accounts did u set up to garner 12% of the vote for moderator?

    P.S. I apologize if I offended anyone else from Texas or fans of GW....Cuzz
  • Cuzz, I do what I please with ease. The only reason why my posts may seem childish/rude/etc. is because when people piss me off, that really bugs me and thus ignites an almost indistinguishable fuse that runs rampant incessantly. And btw, my being from Houston has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything and FYI I didn't even vote for myself and got my votes fair and square. Thank you.
  • OK bug...maybe my suggestion that your 12% was not legit was out of line...if so I apologize...but u really need to relax. Dog's advice that u do a little digging (and even invest in Fred's book) rather than squeeze the author to post the contents of his book is quite reasonable. IMHO, Fred Renzey's participation in this forum and willingness to address just about any question should be appreciated and not taken advantage of...ditto for Walter Thomason's contributions. Bug, is there something about this u don't understand?
  • Cuzz, I understand what you're saying... but it seems that I am being ragged on, just because I ask more and phrase my questions more elaborately than most people. But you, and everyone that dislikes my 'asking massive questions' to these authors (or anyone) must realize something. Where would we draw the line, if you guys are giving me problems about my questions, and coercing me to "buy the book" "buy the book"?! If you think about it, I could make the exact same argument against ANYONE that asks ANY question on this entire forum because they too could find the answer by alternative means, whether it be buying the book (like so many ppl are suggesting I do), searching it on the internet, etc. but if this is the case, than why the hell would ANY of us need to be even wasting our time with this awesome Forum? My point is that if you're gonna rag on me for asking questions (be it TOO MANY or not), than go ahead and give everyone else that asks any future BJ questions on here the exact same guilt feeling, and furthermore go and tell them to "buy the book" etc. if you dont feel like elaborating and attending to their inquisitive minds as well.

    I dont appreciate you people telling me to go "buy the book" and all this BS if YOU YOURSELF are frequent posters on here who ANSWER PEOPLES QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :roll:

    Furthermore, I am not going to "buy the book" just for a few answers to my questions and if you people do not feel comfortable answering my future inquiries than this really ISN'T a good BJ forum.
  • BuGhOu§eMASTER said:
    Desert Dog, as porky pig would say... "PP PPPPP PPPPPPP PPPPPPPPPPPPPPISSSSSSSSSSSSS OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    If what I'm saying pisses you off that much, than dont respond to me. I have a right to post whatever the hell I want, whether it be questions, comments, etc. and if you dont like it go suck a big one. Same goes for the rest of you.
    Otherwise, STFU!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

    Let me try. Bug- 1. First of all, what you post doesn't p... me off. Never will. All the personal attacks do is negate any of the knowledge you bring to this forum. 2. I am not sure what right you have to post whatever you want. This is not your website and I think Neil has the final say for content on this site. 3. If you do not like the advice you receive, just say thank you or ask a follow up question. 4. You are an asset to this forum when you stay on point :) . 5. Since you started using this site, we have lost some of my favorite posters. Is it a Coincidence? You decide. 5. Right now we have two esteemed experts and authors that grace this site on a regular basis. Plus, many posters with a vast amount of knowledge that are kind enough to share it with us. If anything you post chases any of these people away, I will hold you responsible and then I will not forgive(if I can paraphrase Vito Coleone). :P Just kidding. Couldn't stay serious any longer. 6. Greatest movie line of all times? "Leave the gun. Bring the canolis."
  • Enough time and energy has been wasted on the subject. I love a good fight just as much as everyone combined, but this isn't the place for it.
    Now, and this goes for anyone, imagine you wrote a book, which you put forth alot of time and effort, years of experience and expertise into. Then you were asked to give the info for free to someone you don't know on some message board!- number one: people pay for that information, and two: the information is much better explained in the book than can be done on a message board, leading to a better understanding of the facts if read from the book. And you'll always have it to reference. (and it only costs <1 hand of BJ if using green!)<br />I hope that helps with understanding the "get the book" principle.

    NOW LETS GET BACK TO WHAT BRINGS US ALL TOGETHER- BlackJack !!!
    8)
  • 5. Since you started using this site, we have lost some of my favorite posters.


    Who are the fav. posters that have vanished since I started posting?
  • I purchased the book today. Been playing BJ two years. I've read many books on BJ. After a while they all seemed to cover the same material. But Fred's 'Blue Book gave me what I, a basic strategy player, needed to sqeeze out a little more advantage. Hope to finish book by the weekend then use as reference. Thanks Mr. Renzey!
  • Bug, amazon.com has the book ...takes two or three days...
  • Ray, thanks for the post-2 month reply.
  • Bug, your most welcome, I must have got lucky. After I read the book
    I let a friend read it and then had trouble getting it back. Then my daughter took it to Denver and once again I can't get it back. You might
    try other places like Casinocitytimes.com. Good luck.

    Ray

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