Double Deck (DD) games
  • I have been reading and practicing extensively Kiss III and Walter's progression for the 6 deck game available here in my town. I am looking forward to playing the Double Deck game when I visit Vegas. I have NO experience with this type of game, however. I can generate the strategy charts for this, but what other diferences can I expect? Somewhere I think I read the cards are face down; is it possible to keep track of them? Any hints will be appreciated.
  • At some point during any Blackjack game the cards are turned face up. (For the camera) The dealers do differ in the speed in which they are picked up, it seems that the more tokes they get the longer the dead cards are left on the table face up. :wink: coincidence???
    Good luck with the KISS III. Please let us know how it works out for you. I really prefer the double deck games, to all the rest of them, especially when I'm trying to (keyword "trying") to count.
  • D - When playing a single or double deck pitch game, you can only touch the cards with one hand. Try and sit at first or third base. If you sit in the middle of the table you may look like you are watching a tennis match, when you are doing your count. Like Mike said you will have to get your count when the dealer turns the cards face up, after the hand is over. Count the ones that you will see, like BJ, splits, double downs and busted hands, and the rest as the dealer turns them up. Cheer up D, it is not as hard as it sounds.... I know you will have fun and hope you have good luck as well.
  • I went to Vegas last weekend and I highly recommend the double deck games at the Stardust, Barbary Coast, and Fitzgeralds.

    I'll post a more detailed trip report in a few days.
  • Thanks for the FAST answers!!! I appreciate it.
  • D- In many cases you will see 5-6 cards at once and that will be your
    best chance at keeping the count straight provided that you learn to
    count all that you see at one time. The idea of counting by two and then
    count the hit cards works fine in exposed shoe games, but in pitch games,
    not so fine. You can learn to count by 3's,4's in an exposed game which
    will not only help you in those games, it makes for a better flow in pitch
    games. First or third would be my suggestion. If at first, your over and
    done with quickly and if you have a pat hand so much the better. At 3rd,
    finish off the others first unless you have a pat hand.

    Ray
  • I was able to turn a nice profit three weeks ago on a 2D table at Hardrock. I had been down about $500 for all three days playing at major strip locations, then recovered all plus more on my last day at Hardrock.
  • D said:
    I am looking forward to playing the Double Deck game when I visit Vegas.


    Have you tried the Double Deck pitch game yet? I'm curious on how you did with the KISS III system with it.
    I played a couple of hours today at two casinos in So Cal, the only Double deck games here are dealt out of a shoe and have a 50.00 min, which translates , to me, having a 1000.00 bankroll, so I ended up playing a 6 deck shoe, worked my butt off to come out 50.00 ahead at the end, but it was still fun. Good way to break up a boring work day.
  • Not going to Vegas until later this Fall. I only have 6 deck shoe games here.
  • DD games can be difficult to count if there's a fast dealer and players that make fast decisions. I would watch a table for a while to see where the cards end up face up. if someone Doubles down, their original cards will be face up first, followed by their hit card, but normal hits will receive the hit cards face up first. So its just a matter of knowing what the player did with his hand to know what to count.
  • Just back from Las Vegas, played my first DD BJ. Played at the Stardust. After the jitters were gone, had a good time. I'm a new counter, use KISS II. Have played 6 deck, S17, etc. for a about a year and still lose the count a lot!! DD was easier to keep track of the cards that I thought it was going to be. I counted the dealers up card first, then my hand, then the hits on other players, and then the hole cards as they were turned over. The only hard part was when a player went over 21 and threw their hand in. But the dealer always spread the cards and double checked the count was over 21. When I lost the count, just had to wait a few hands and could start over again.
    The rules were good, S17, etc. But pent was bad. They cut off one whole deck. Can now understand why quit points and progressions don't work on DD. You have to count to play. They have signs "No mid shoe entry". But they can't stop mid shoe leaving! Did a lot of walking around, they had 6 tables with about 3 or 4 players per table. Played $25 for about 4 hours, 10 am to 2 pm. Won $300. Max spread was 3 green chips. (I'm still leaning) But I didn't play negative tables, that was part of the winning.
    If you have any concerns about DD, don't let it stop you from playing. :wink:
  • Where I find any "pitched game" difficult to count is in those cases where the dealer gets a natural and everyone tosses their cards in. If everyone was a counter this would be easy as we would _all_ toss our cards in so that they were separated and easy to read. But alas, that doesn't happen. It will happen that on a dealer natural, you are just going to miss a couple of cards from time to time, more often on a full table, but even if there is only one other player, he can drop his cards perfectly stacked and you can only see one.

    Fortunately the number of dealer naturals is not that high, and when they do happen, the cards are readable most of the time. Only problem I have seen with DD is that the minimums are often "up there". Last time at the Beau Rivage in Biloxi the minimum was $100 for the only DD game I saw. They also had a couple of the 6:5 SD games but I simply refuse to play them. Leaving me with the shoe games, and, as you said, "working your butt off for a pretty small return."

    I'd like to try Reno one day to see if the SD games are really as good as I have heard.

    One note, I watched a DD table last time I was in Biloxi, and a guy walked up and bought in for $1500 and played only black chips. I was talking to my son and noticed that this guy was _really_ spreading his bets from $100 to $1200, but he did it in a "parlay doubling manner with a fudge." IE he would bet a hundred, win, and have $200 on the table. Often he would add a couple of more chips to go from 100 to 400, or from 800-1200. After noticing this, I started counting behind him at the next shuffle, and lo and behold he was a counter. Dressed nicely. No drunken act. Quiet. Serious. Spreading his bets like crazy (1-12 that I saw several times) right along with the hi-lo count. No heat whatsoever. No attention.

    Don't know how he pulled that off, but somehow he did. When I left he had maybe 4-5 stacks of 10-15 black chips, after starting with 15. Big night although I only watched for about 30 minutes.

    How in the hell does someone get away with spreading 1-12 in a 2D pitched game, when I've had too much attention spreading 1-8 on a 6 deck game at times? I watched and tried to figure it out, but everything he did said "counter at work." Perhaps just a lucky draw with the pit crew. The dealer spoke broken English (perhaps Armenian or something was his native language) but the pit boss was red-white-blue USA-born. :)

    Wish they'd have had a $10 table in that pit but no go. The other games were the usual nonsense of 3-card poker, Carribian, Pai Gow, let it ride, etc... Otherwise I would have given it a go to see if I could slide by with 1-12 in a 2 deck game. That could turn into a profitable evening. Or, in my case, probably in a forced trip to the parking deck. :(
  • Another counting point. In a pitched game, as mentioned, where the cards are dealt face-down, hit cards are dealt face up. Count them as they are dealt to each player, plus count the dealer's up card and your two down-cards. As a player draws cards, count them. If the player doubles or splits, he will turn them face up. Count them then. Now you only need to keep up with which hands you did not see. Once 3rd base has completed his hand, you watch as the dealer will take his two down cards, drag them closer to him than the already-face-up hit cards, and turn them over. Count them, and it is really not hard to avoid counting the hit cards a second time since they are usually separate from the two down cards. Just follow the dealer around the table as he turns up the two cards at a time, merrily counting them as he exposes them to pay the player or grab his chips.

    I did forget about the dealer's hand, but you count that the same in any game since his first action is to turn over his hole card and that is the only card you have not yet counted.

    Gets pretty busy. Be good to invite a couple of friends over and try this some for practice.

    Now you have done the easy part, maintaining the running count. Estimate the cards played so far from the discard tray and compute the true count. Now figure out how to use that to get the right bet out without attracting attention with the spread. _that_ is the "interesting" part of all of this...

    I once saw a quote, don't know who made it, that went something like this: "play blackjack with the dealer, play poker with the pit critters." :)

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