Beware the casino gestapo...check out this article
  • And that right there folks... is why I dont count cards. Thank you.
  • That's really scary stuff. But from reading it through twice, the blackjack players that were intimidated were hole-carding, that is, somehow getting a peek at the dealer's face down card.

    I didn't see anything in the story about players who were just suspected of counting being abused this way. Counters do get 'backroomed', of course, especially if the casinos get wise to a gang, but it's usually 'get out and don't come back', though the MIT gang had their suite ransacked in Vegas, but hey, they did get away with several million dollars.

    While there is no justification for detaining and intimidating these guys the way the casinos did, let's face it, hole-carding is cheating or awfully close to it. It is not legitimate advantage play. The complicity of the gaming authorities and police is very disturbing. Underneath the glitter and new corporate polish, Vegas is still a sleazy corrupt place.
  • That's just ridiculous. I know what lawyer I'm calling if I ever get in trouble in Vegas, though.

    While I agree hole-carding is pretty damn close to cheating, it's up to the casino to make sure their dealers play properly, IMO. It's also up to them to make sure their slots are paying out the right amounts.
  • Don't mix right with wrong here. Hole Carding is flat out cheating! The rules say "you don't get to see the dealer's hole card" and when you sit down and play, you agree to that rule. If you can somehow spot the hole card, you're breaching that agreement.
    Sound picky? If you were playing poker and could spot your opponent's hole cards, used that information and didn't say anything -- but later found out he was intentionally flashing you his cards, then exchanging them for something else, which of you would be the bigger scumbag?
    When I play blackjack, if the dealer mistakenly pays me when I've lost a hand, I give the money back. I want to beat'em -- not cheat'em -- fair and square. If you were backing a blackjack game and saw somebody hole carding your dealer, how should you react?
    Yeah, it stinks that casinos back off card counters for using their heads. It also favors a skilled player that he can play the shoes that favor him and skip the unfavorable ones. With all this, the games are still beatable, straight up, and there are lots of places to play.
    My point for this post is that counting cards is a lot different than hole carding, and the two are usually treated pretty differently by the casinos.
  • How does someone hole-card? Is it ONLY possible to do so if you know the dealer and have a prearranged agreement with him/her? Otherwise I dont see how to do that.
  • I guess its all a matter of semantics. If the casinos had thier way they would make a rule that documented card counting is 'cheating', then where would we be Fred, its thier game and thier rules so why couldn't they do this? I don't know where they keep this rule book but if the dealer is not trained enough to not show his hole card, too bad (its a moot point in Tunica as every table there has the mirror viewing device). I haven't seen that rule and I've seen too many respected authors list dealer mistakes as part of the players intangible advantage so I will continue to accept the chips. Incidently I have also been the recipient of counting errors at the cage too, I also take that money, but I won't accept money inadvertantly given to me by the clerk at the 7-11. I appreciate the entertainment venue the casino gives me but I also see how they gladly take any and all money in sure win games without a shred of guilt about it, in fact we are treated as 'cash cattle' by them, just numbers in an accountant book that adds to thier bottom line. I have seen the smile on the pit boss'es face as one of his dealers hits a hot streak and stripped everyone at the table of thier chips hand after hand, so I don't feel bad at all when I get a little bonus. Its different in poker, and different in purposeful scams to take the casinos money, but 'casino error' is fair play as far as I,m concerned. And Bug, I wouldn't give up on counting yet, today was the first day that I actually bet with the count, after two 6 deck shoes with a 10 or less KISS count I was down 18 units, the count hit 25 and in four hands I made it all back with the help of a double.
  • BuGhOu§eMASTER said:
    How does someone hole-card? Is it ONLY possible to do so if you know the dealer and have a prearranged agreement with him/her? Otherwise I dont see how to do that.


    One way is at casinos that don't use scanners or mirrors when the dealer has to check the hole card when his upcard is an ace or ten. It's possible for a confederate across the pit to catch a glimpse when the dealer turns up the corner, then send a signal to the player.
  • Cheating is cheating, plain and simple. Anyone that does should expect to raise the stakes from winning cash to getting their ass kicked. Pray for me I'm driving Hwy 40 tonight (Laughlin)
  • Pretty scary stuff. I'd imagine this attorney's video collection would help in other cases. On a related note, I understand that since the Indian casinos are considered Sovereign territory, outside law doesn't apply. Though I'm not sure if this is a myth or not.

    Also, would "sequence" or "cancellation" betting be considered advantage playing?

    John
  • Let me preface this post by saying I've never seen a dealer's hole card (and I've never tried to). But there are so many ways for a casino to avoid that (mirrors, casinos in Colorado have some kind of reader where they put the corner of the hole card over a reader and push a button. Green light, you keep playing. Red light is a blackjack). I guess I don't feel all that bad when a casino is too cheap to implement one of those measures. Do that and they would never have a problem with people looking at hole cards again.

    BTW, I also return money paid to me in error.
  • jm2552 said:
    Pretty scary stuff. I'd imagine this attorney's video collection would help in other cases. On a related note, I understand that since the Indian casinos are considered Sovereign territory, outside law doesn't apply. Though I'm not sure if this is a myth or not.

    Also, would "sequence" or "cancellation" betting be considered advantage playing?

    John


    Not a myth at all. Why do you think they're allowed to have casinos on them, even if the state they're in doesn't allow gambling?
  • Most casinos now use viewfinders to determine the dealer's hole card. But that doesn't stop imaginative scammers from finding ways to learn the hole card's value. Sitting low at first base and watching closely as the dealer slides his hole card out of the shoe can sometimes reveal it since that card will have to have part of its surface on the table and part cocked up in the shoe at one moment. The use of a shiny reflective ring on your finger with your hand placed flat on the table at the proper angle can pick up the face of the card as it slides out of the shoe.
    All these tricks as you can imagine would require deliberate forethought and practice which constitutes out-and-out conspiracy to cheat. Why not just practice counting cards and learn to beat them straight up?
  • Renzey said:
    Most casinos now use viewfinders to determine the dealer's hole card. But that doesn't stop imaginative scammers from finding ways to learn the hole card's value. Sitting low at first base and watching closely as the dealer slides his hole card out of the shoe can sometimes reveal it since that card will have to have part of its surface on the table and part cocked up in the shoe at one moment. The use of a shiny reflective ring on your finger with your hand placed flat on the table at the proper angle can pick up the face of the card as it slides out of the shoe.
    All these tricks as you can imagine would require deliberate forethought and practice which constitutes out-and-out conspiracy to cheat. Why not just practice counting cards and learn to beat them straight up?


    I agree with you when it comes to using mirrors, cameras, etc. to see hole cards. I was just making reference to sloppy dealers who didn't protect their hole card at casinos without viewfinders.

    One of these days I'll get around to counting. But I don't get out to casinos enough to practice it. That darn family thing keeps getting in the way. :D
  • Buffarino said:

    I agree with you when it comes to using mirrors, cameras, etc. to see hole cards. I was just making reference to sloppy dealers who didn't protect their hole card at casinos without viewfinders.

    One of these days I'll get around to counting. But I don't get out to casinos enough to practice it. That darn family thing keeps getting in the way. :D


    Turn Blackjack into a family activity. Get your kids to help you practice counting.
  • Desert Dog said:
    [quote=Buffarino]
    I agree with you when it comes to using mirrors, cameras, etc. to see hole cards. I was just making reference to sloppy dealers who didn't protect their hole card at casinos without viewfinders.

    One of these days I'll get around to counting. But I don't get out to casinos enough to practice it. That darn family thing keeps getting in the way. :D


    Turn Blackjack into a family activity. Get your kids to help you practice counting.[/quote]

    Something tells me Mrs. Buffarino wouldn't like that too much. :(
  • Buffarino said:
    [quote=Desert Dog][quote=Buffarino]
    I agree with you when it comes to using mirrors, cameras, etc. to see hole cards. I was just making reference to sloppy dealers who didn't protect their hole card at casinos without viewfinders.

    One of these days I'll get around to counting. But I don't get out to casinos enough to practice it. That darn family thing keeps getting in the way. :D


    Turn Blackjack into a family activity. Get your kids to help you practice counting.[/quote]

    Something tells me Mrs. Buffarino wouldn't like that too much. :([/quote]

    But it's educational! Have them keep count too and compare results. They'll do better in math at school.
  • Desert Dog said:
    [quote=Buffarino][quote=Desert Dog][quote=Buffarino]
    I agree with you when it comes to using mirrors, cameras, etc. to see hole cards. I was just making reference to sloppy dealers who didn't protect their hole card at casinos without viewfinders.

    One of these days I'll get around to counting. But I don't get out to casinos enough to practice it. That darn family thing keeps getting in the way. :D


    Turn Blackjack into a family activity. Get your kids to help you practice counting.[/quote]

    Something tells me Mrs. Buffarino wouldn't like that too much. :([/quote]

    But it's educational! Have them keep count too and compare results. They'll do better in math at school.[/quote]

    Maybe when he's older. Buffarino Jr. is only 3 mos. old.

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