What's With LV Dealers!
  • Just got back from LV and played bj at 3 hotels; Imperial Palace, Slots of Fun, and Casino Royale. Good rules at the tables at SOF and CR but in all three hotels the dealers commented and gave me the "do you know what you're doing" look and somewhat embarrasing me in front of other players because I hit a 12 with dealers 2 or 3. This is by the book but you'd think I'd hit a 20 by the way they commented and stopped and asked me things like "Do you really want to do that"? etc. etc. What's up with this? I finally memorized my basic strategy perfectly for this trip and felt confident...yes I did win some with each sitting, but I would sure like to have some replies that I could say back to these dealers the next time I go down to LV to play and hit on a 12 to dealers 2 or 3. Thanks all.
  • None of these places are really for high rollers or experienced players; they are mostly for wasted folks in their early 21s. The atmosphere itself is enough to drive most people out (especially in SOF). So I think these places make their money from a high volume of clueless low-rollers. Again, these may be gross generalizations, but that's what I observed playing in this places.

    I am guessing that the dealers saw someone who seemed to know BS and either thought that the person is accidently making the right moves (and isn't aware that he can bust with 12), or tried to scare that person off because he might actually win or just last too long.

    I've noticed that the more upscale places like the Bellagio are friendlier on low-limit tables and actually point out BS mistakes. They don't make their living on the 5$ tables so they want you to stick around.
  • I would say "learn to count cards, and play there again." No better cover than for the dealer to think you are a moron for hitting that 12 vs 2 or 3. And when you learn index BS departures and hit a 12 vs a 5 or a 13 vs a 3, they will know you are an idiot. And everyone knows that idiots can't count cards and are not a threat to the casino...

    :)
  • I agree with stainless...fwiw, I always HIT a 12 & 13 when a dealer has a 2 or 3 upcard, especially when the count is negative...If you get the Blackjack Attack book by Don S., he has a list called "The Illustrious 18", where he lists 18 BS departure variations according to the count...If you are going to try counting cards, imo, a Double Deck game is your best BET...

    IMO Try Thorpe's Advanced Count :
    2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 = +1
    8 = 0
    9, 10, A = -1
  • Give them the benefit of the doubt - they are (cluelessly) trying to help you, an enviable quality in any dealer. I would politely say, "Thanks for your concern, but yes, please hit me." Then say, "I just have a feeling about the next card." If they insist, say something stupid like, "For the moment, I'm here to have FUN, not play by the book." Don't piss off the dealer. Occasionally you WILL make a stupid move and you want the dealer to question you then.
  • AT LEAST 9 OUT OF 10 DEALERS WILL SAY "YOU SURE YOU WANT TO HIT THAT"?
  • Since it is on my trusty laminated strategy card to hit 12 with dealers 2 or 3, should I just kind of pull it out and say...Well, I am doing the right thing?
  • If you are counting cards, no. No plastic card. No nothing. Let them think you are a moron. Moron = good cover. :)

    Don't attract attention further by proving you are playing correctly...
  • I JUST RETURNED FROM VEGAS AND I AGREE THAT THE DEALERS OUT THERE ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT THAN FOXWOODS WHERE I NORMALLY PLAY.I HAD 18-20 DIFFERENT DEALERS OUT THERE AND JUST TWO ARE MEMORABLE.THE OTHERS EITHER BEGGED FOR TIPS OR MADE ME FEEL STUPID WHEN HITTING 12 AGAINST A 3.I WOULD NOT RETURN TO VEGAS FOR GAMING .MAYBE FOR SHOWS.IN 5 DAYS THAT I WAS THERE I BROKE EVEN MOSTLY PLAYING BLACKJACK.DOWN AS MUCH AS 600 AND UP AS MUCH 400.I SUGGEST USING EVERY COUPON YOU CAN FIND OUT THERE.
  • Good to know I'm not the only one who felt this way last time in LV. I sometimes wish the dealers wouldn't converse with me at all!!
  • stainless steel rat said:
    I would say "learn to count cards, and play there again." No better cover than for the dealer to think you are a moron for hitting that 12 vs 2 or 3. And when you learn index BS departures and hit a 12 vs a 5 or a 13 vs a 3, they will know you are an idiot. And everyone knows that idiots can't count cards and are not a threat to the casino...

    :)


    Hi there, can anyone tell me, what are those "basic strategy departures"? I undestand the reason of doing that (hit a 12 vs a 5), but don't know what is that index :(
    Thanks
  • Impossible to know without knowing the counting system you use. For Hi-Lo, Wong's PBJ has them all. Most stick with the illustrious 18 BS departure indices, and add the fab-4 surrender indices...

    but the numbers vary wildly depending on your counting system.

    if you use hi-lo, I can easily post those...
  • The realitive value/index for variations are close to the same
    regardless of the count system. H/L may have 40-50 and some
    like Renzey's Mentor Count have 80, some have 20-28, etc.

    What do I mean by relative value? Example: A +1 true count in
    H/L is a +4 in Renzey's sys, but their value is very close to the same.
    Kiss 22 is equal to + 2 H/L if I remember correctly, etc. The thing to
    remember is that some systems are better than others so your results
    will, over the long term, be a tad better.
  • I was also thinking about the unbalanced counts such as KO, zen, etc, which would further confound posting a precise index without qualifying what it goes with...
  • Ok, I started with HiLo sys, that ok, but i don't think I got the point of "index" (But thanks, maybe i should read more books first, that would be useful :)
    Final question is: which book (BJ) i should start with? I have no idea which one is the best for beginners.. Thank you
  • stainless steel rat said:
    Impossible to know without knowing the counting system you use. For Hi-Lo, Wong's PBJ has them all. Most stick with the illustrious 18 BS departure indices, and add the fab-4 surrender indices...

    but the numbers vary wildly depending on your counting system.

    if you use hi-lo, I can easily post those...


    Are the I18 listed in any of Wong's books ?
  • Not in that form. All the indices are listed. Here are the ones I use (I-18 and fab-4, I will exclude the other few special cases I have learned over time, dealing with doubling things like 8 vs 6, etc.)

    hit/stand:

    12 vs 2, stand @ 3
    12 vs 3, stand @ 2
    12 vs 4, stand @ 0
    12 vs 5, stand @ -2
    12 vs 6, stand @ -1
    13 vs 2, stand @ -1
    13 vs 3, stand @ -2
    15 vs 10, stand @ 4
    16 vs 9, stand @ 5
    16 vs 10, stand @ 0

    split:

    10-10 vs 5, split @ 5
    10-10 vs 6, split @ 4

    double

    9 vs 2, double @ 1
    9 vs 7, double @ 3
    10 vs 10, double @ 4
    10 vs A, double @ 4
    11 vs A, double @ 1

    surrender (fab 4)

    14 vs 10, surrender @ 3
    15 vs 9, surrender @ 2
    15 vs 10, surrender @ 0
    15 vs A, surrender @ 2
    16 vs 9-10-A, surrender always

    Those are for Hi-Lo, S17 DD...
  • As a note, the I-18 indices get about 80% of the possible EV you would get by using all the Hi-Lo indices.
  • Correy most members, me too, would suggest that you get Bluebook II.
    A great place to start and finish.
  • Correy - Ray is right as usual.....Excellent book to buy.........Grifter
  • redstar said:
    Just got back from LV and played bj at 3 hotels; Imperial Palace, Slots of Fun, and Casino Royale. Good rules at the tables at SOF and CR but in all three hotels the dealers commented and gave me the "do you know what you're doing" look and somewhat embarrasing me in front of other players because I hit a 12 with dealers 2 or 3. This is by the book but you'd think I'd hit a 20 by the way they commented and stopped and asked me things like "Do you really want to do that"? etc. etc. What's up with this? I finally memorized my basic strategy perfectly for this trip and felt confident...yes I did win some with each sitting, but I would sure like to have some replies that I could say back to these dealers the next time I go down to LV to play and hit on a 12 to dealers 2 or 3. Thanks all.


    You are simply encountering the wrong dealers. Some dealers aren't players and don't care to learn basic strategy. I am both a dealer and a player and have taken the time to learn basic strategy. If you were on my game you would not be ridiculed for hitting a 12 vs. 2 or 3, but rather for not hitting.
  • You should rephrase that. Maybe _you_ would not ridicule him for hitting that 12 vs 2 or 3, but I'll guarantee you there will be at least one at the table that will do so. There always is...

    It _really_ gets them going on index plays like 13 vs 2, 14 vs 2 or 15 vs 2 as well. :)

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