8 Deck Game Beatable?
  • Mohegan Sun: 8Decks S17 DA2 DAS Surrender
    Is this game beatable with Hi-Lo Count System?

    Or would it be worth the extra hour drive to Atlantic City 6 Deck Game
  • Mohegan Sun has plenty of 6 deck. Poor penetration... but varies by dealer.

    Some $10 games off peak during week also.

  • An 8 deck game obviously follows the same rules, its just that the chances of actually getting a favorable deck situation are smaller.

    But if you have the patience you can still beat the house, it will only take longer and will require more focus but the game is the same...

    6 deck vs.8 deck advantage is minor chances wise.

    good luck,

  • maybe or maybe not. Sometimes the 8 deckers have far worse penetration. One reason for going to 8 decks is that you can deal 5 decks and not get stomped by counters as you would in a 6 deck game dealt down to just one deck. But 8 decks, with 3 decks cut off is not a playable game...
  • Are pits even concerned about counting in 8-deck games ?
  • Yes, they worry at Mohegan Sun. Yes 8 decks can be a winner for hi/lo, but...

    Stick with the 6 deckers in the "4-Seasons" casino. Same rules. 75% pen during mid-week days (Tue - Thurs). I WON'T be there this weekend, due to the Holiday Players and the poor penetration (60-65% !), coupled with the higher minimums. Summer is my usual quiet period. Let the college kids play 21 June to Sept., the other 8 months give or take Holidays is open season.

    Sticking to optimal play periods and 6 decks a spread of 1-2-4 will do nicely at $25. As always don't increase the bet when the count goes up, wait until you get a winner AND a higher count, but always decrease by the count.

    Good Cards
  • I have also had 2 separate occasions at MS recently where they let me split to a total of 5 hands!!

    I have also seen the 75-80% Nickels_n_Bullets was talking about. Some dealers better than others during the mid-day.

  • Thanks for the feedback. I'm still pretty much a newbie counter. Only two attempts so far. First time out I'm keeping the running count very well converting to the true count I'd say about 95% accurate, but after awhile I said "man this is WORK". So I abandoned counting and just played BS and enjoyed myself.

    Next time out I had a more serious attitude. Back counted a table to a +12 with 2 decks gone leaving 6 decks. Not bad I thought. Sat down to play and took a beating. Count kept getting better and I kept losing more. I think I had one of those "negative variations" is it called?? The dealer kept getting the 20's and BJ's and I got the 17's 18's and 19's. (Or worse.)

    I know I still have a lot more practice and studying to do. I still need to learn all the different hand variations at different counts and all that. Thanks again for your feedback.
  • c man said, "Count kept getting better and I kept losing more. I think I had one of those "negative variations" is it called?? The dealer kept getting the 20's and BJ's and I got the 17's 18's and 19's. (Or worse.)"...LOL...so typical...

    Great quotes from stainless steel rat,
    "The single most profitable playing session I ever had, back in the summer, saw me win just over $9500 playing a $25 min DD game. I won almost every hand, LOW count, HIGH count, NEUTRAL count. I won over $500 BEFORE the count got ABOVE 0 in fact."(Hit or Stand Forum, February 2005)...FACT : he WON no matter WHAT the Count was!!!...

    Again, from Stainless Steel Rat,
    "COUNTERS have their troubles. If you read my post about 4 trips that have doubled a starting $1000 bankroll, you might appreciate this. I have not yet finished trial 5, but some results might be educational.

    For trip 5, I again started with a trip bankroll of $1000. This time things went pretty poorly from the get-go and I almost went bust. My low BR point was $35. I was in a HIGH count and was spreading $5 to $40 in a DD game. And I LOST hand after hand. I finally got ready to make my (what I assumed would be) my final bet, but only had $35 left. Pushed it out and finally won. A loss there and trial 5 would have ended at bust, after the first four ended in success. I am now back to about $600 and will continue the trial the next time I get away to play. Watching $1000 disappear can be painful, watching part of it "come back" can be a relief.

    These "swings" are pretty common, and that is a big reason WHY you need a decent bankroll to get over those valleys. $1000 is not very safe for $5 to $40 bet spreads (sometimes 2x25 rather than 1x40 if there are other players at the table). But I thought it would be entertaining to see what someone might be able to do with this starting point. Whether I will double this bank or not is a guess. I certainly came within a whisker of losing it all, and I am still down nearly 50% for the trial...

    On a non-counter tangent, my son doesn't count. Yet his last three sessions where he just flat-bet the table min, he has WON about $300 each time. He had seen me do this over and over, knowing I was counting cards, now he is convinced that he can go with me, play on his own, and make money NOT even playing BS. He hardly ever doubles, for example, because he remembers the painful losses (11 vs 10, drawing an Ace). Yet he has +still+ filed away almost $1000 in wins playing $5 shoe games. Of course he is headed for a train wreck, and I've warned him. And eventually he will "see the light".

    I have LOST 20 consecutive hands. Each painfully counted by my wife as she looked on. I have flat-bet in NEGATIVE counts and WON piles of money as well, where I should be getting my clock cleaned. I have LOST TONS of money on HIGH counts where I get the stiffs and the dealer draws nothing but 20/21 hands. But over the long run, I'm winning as I should be. But it is very easy to remember the bad, and forget the good, because the good is what is supposed to happen.

    More than anything else, this requires "intestinal fortitude". You will get plenty of "gut checks" along the path..."(Hit Or Stand Forum, February 2005).
  • Hey, I'm becoming a legend in my own mind. :)

    But seriously, Arnold Snyder wrote a piece on bjforumonline.com titled something like "you won't win". The main reason is that most won't have the intestinal fortitude to survive those occasional grand canyons. We all know about the peaks and valleys, but occasionally a valley opens up into something beyond remarkable...
  • Here's my question then... whats better to play in Atlantic City?:

    a. 8 deck/ 3:2
    b. 6 deck/ 3:2
    c. single deck/ 6:5


    I know the better would be DD but unfortunatley Atlantic City doesn't have that cause Atlantic City is pathetic. So which one out of those 3?
  • 6:5 is bad enough to outweight any increase in number of decks.
    So 6 decks is your winner.
    Personally, I'd say go to wherever penetration is best and limits are lower (borgata even has a 5$ table though with a line) because then the counting can make a difference.

    I think it's impossible or nearly impossible to beat a 6:5 even if you could 'spreadem.
  • Yeah, I went to the Borgata on a Monday night once and couldn't even get a seat at a blackjack table.. this was like a year and a half ago. Im not sure if the crowds are still that crazy?
  • Is it me or is that giant photo in every post extremely annoying??
  • Who knows. No one said anything about it. But at your request I took it off for you so I do not extremely annoy you anymore.
  • Probably the main point to look at to choose between the 6D and 8D shoes is to analyze two factors:

    1. House edge. You can find good charts that tell you what each house rule adds or subtracts from the house edge. This gives you an idea about how beatable the game is.

    2. Penetration. Here you just have to shop and watch. It is a variable in some places, some use a slot in the shoe to set the cut card consistently, some use their eye, some just stick it in the shuffled pack somewhere. Penetration is certainly critical for a counter.

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